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OJ-PART2.TXT
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1994-08-02
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148
1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 1994
2 9:25 A.M.
3 -O0O-
4
5 (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
6 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
7
8 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
9 WE ARE CONTINUING THIS MORNING WITH:
10 "NAME OF POSSIBLE DEFENDANT:
11 "ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON.
12 THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY ARE MARSHA CLARK
13 AND DAVID CONN.
14 MADAME SECRETARY?
15
16 (ROLL CALLED.)
17
18 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THERE ARE
19 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT.
20 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
21 THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY MAY NOW
22 PROCEED.
23 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
24 THE PEOPLE CALL JILL SHIVELY.
25 I WOULD INDICATE TO MADAME FOREMAN THESE
26 WITNESSES DO NOT APPEAR ON THE WITNESS LIST. SOME
27 WITNESSES WERE ADDED LATER, AS THE INVESTIGATION IS
28 ONGOING. I APOLOGIZE TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY.
149
1 ALSO, I WOULD LIKE TO INDICATE THAT SOME OF THE
2 DELAYS THAT WE HAVE ENCOUNTERED ARE DUE TO THE FACT THAT
3 THE INVESTIGATION IS PROCEEDING AT A RAPID PACE BUT IS
4 STILL VERY ACTIVELY BEING PURSUED; AND, FOR THAT REASON,
5 MANY OF THE WITNESSES HAVE NOT BEEN PREVIOUSLY INTERVIEWED,
6 NOR ARE THERE ANY WITNESS STATEMENTS TO REVIEW ON THEM.
7 I APOLOGIZE TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
8 FOR THE DELAYS DUE TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO TRY TO TALK
9 TO THE WITNESSES, AT LEAST BRIEFLY, BEFORE WE PRESENT THEIR
10 TESTIMONY IN ORDER TO PRESENT IT MORE EFFECTIVELY.
11 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU, MISS CLARK.
12 THE GRAND JURY APPRECIATES YOUR EXPLANATION.
13 JILL SHIVELY?
14 THE WITNESS: YES.
15 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
16 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
17 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
18 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
19 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
20 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
21 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
22 MISS SHIVELY, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
23 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
24 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS JILL SHIVELY.
25 JILL, J-I-L-L, SHIVELY, S-H-I-V-E-L-Y.
26 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
27 YOU MAY NOW PROCEED.
28 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
150
1 JILL SHIVELY,
2 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
3 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
4
5 E X A M I N A T I O N
6 BY MS. CLARK:
7 Q. MISS SHIVELY, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
8 DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, CAN YOU TELL US THE
9 GENERAL LOCATION IN WHICH YOU WERE LIVING.
10 A. 20TH AND WILSHIRE, ONE BLOCK NORTH ON
11 CALIFORNIA.
12 Q. IN SANTA MONICA?
13 A. IN SANTA MONICA, RIGHT.
14 Q. IS THAT ANYWHERE NEAR AN AREA KNOWN AS "THE
15 VILLAGE"?
16 A. IT'S PRETTY CLOSE; 3 MILES, SOMETHING LIKE
17 THAT.
18 Q. NOW, WHEN I MENTION "THE VILLAGE," WHAT IS
19 THAT?
20 A. BRENTWOOD VILLAGE.
21 Q. WHAT DO YOU FIND IN THAT VILLAGE?
22 A. DIFFERENT STORES, SHOPS, FOOD.
23 I JOG UP AROUND SAN VICENTE IN THE MEDIAN A
24 LOT.
25 Q. AND PEOPLE CONGREGATE THERE TO HAVE LUNCH OR
26 GO SHOPPING SORT OF THING?
27 A. RIGHT.
28 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING IN THAT AREA?
151
1 A. 8 YEARS.
2 Q. ON THE DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, DO YOU RECALL
3 LEAVING YOUR HOUSE IN THE EVENING?
4 A. YES, I DO.
5 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE?
6 A. I LEFT MY HOUSE AT 10:45 P.M.
7 Q. ARE YOU CERTAIN OF THAT TIME?
8 A. YES, I AM.
9 Q. WHY ARE YOU SO CERTAIN?
10 A. BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE STORE TO
11 THAT CLOSED AT 11 AND I WANTED TO GET SOMETHING TO EAT.
12 Q. WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOUSE, DID YOU NOTICE
13 WHETHER THE TRAFFIC THAT NIGHT WAS LIGHT OR HEAVY?
14 A. IT WAS VERY LIGHT.
15 THERE WERE VERY FEW CARS OUT.
16 Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL WHAT THE WEATHER WAS
17 LIKE THAT NIGHT?
18 A. IT WAS KIND OF -- IT WASN'T REAL HOT. IT WAS
19 KIND OF A COOL BREEZE.
20 Q. SO YOU WERE DRIVING FAIRLY QUICKLY?
21 A. AROUND 45; 40, 45.
22 Q. AND AS YOU WERE DRIVING, WHAT STREET WERE YOU
23 TAKING?
24 A. SAN VICENTE, EAST.
25 Q. YOU WERE GOING EASTBOUND ON SAN VICENTE?
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. DID YOUR TRAVELING TAKE YOU TO THE INTERSECTION
28 OF SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY?
152
1 A. YES, IT DID.
2 Q. DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL OCCUR THERE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE TO GET FROM YOUR HOUSE,
5 WHICH YOU LEFT AT 10:45, TO THE INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE
6 AND BUNDY?
7 A. APPROXIMATELY 3 TO 5 MINUTES.
8 Q. SO YOU ARRIVED AT THE INTERSECTION OF
9 SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY AT 10:48 TO 10:50?
10 A. RIGHT; YES.
11 Q. BEFORE WE GET INTO THE DISCUSSION OF WHAT YOU
12 SAW THERE, PERHAPS IT WOULD HELP YOU IF YOU USED THAT BOARD
13 NEXT TO YOU AND YOU DRAW A DIAGRAM OF THE INTERSECTION WITH
14 THAT BLUE MARKER IN FRONT OF YOU.
15 A. OKAY.
16 Q. EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
17 I'M GOING TO HOLD THE MICROPHONE UP TO YOU SO
18 THE JURY CAN HEAR YOU.
19 A. OKAY.
20 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, I WILL ASK TO MARK THIS
21 AS PEOPLE'S 22.
22 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
23 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 22.)
24 THE WITNESS: SAN VICENTE IS A STREET WITH A GRASS
25 MEDIAN IN THE MIDDLE SO EACH LANE IS SPLIT.
26 THIS IS THE WESTBOUND LANE OF SAN VICENTE AND
27 THIS IS THE EASTBOUND LANE.
28 Q. BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU DRAW ARROWS TO INDICATE
153
1 THE DIRECTIONS ALSO.
2 A. OKAY.
3 AND THIS IS BUNDY. THIS IS NORTH AND THIS IS
4 SOUTH.
5 BUNDY ALSO SPLITS RIGHT HERE AND IT GOES
6 AROUND.
7 Q. SO IT KIND OF CURVES?
8 A. IT CURVES, RIGHT.
9 Q. CAN YOU WRITE "BUNDY" ON THE STREET THAT IS
10 BUNDY.
11 A. SURE.
12 THERE'S BUNDY.
13 Q. IS THERE A TRAFFIC SIGNAL?
14 A. THERE IS A LIGHT. THERE IS A LIGHT HERE --
15 EITHER HERE OR HERE. THERE IS A LIGHT. I DON'T KNOW
16 EXACTLY -- MAYBE THE POST IS RIGHT HERE.
17 THERE IS A LIGHT RIGHT HERE THAT TELLS YOU
18 WHERE YOU CAN TURN. WHEN YOU COME HERE, YOU HAVE TO STOP
19 AT THE LIGHT, AND HERE, TOO.
20 Q. YOU HAVE PUT TWO LITTLE DOTS ON THE MEDIAN
21 PORTION TO THE RIGHT AS YOU FACE THE DIAGRAM OF WHERE YOU
22 PUT "BUNDY."
23 IS THAT YOUR INDICATION FOR THE TRAFFIC LIGHTS?
24 A. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE SITUATED.
25 AND THEN THERE IS A SCHOOL RIGHT HERE.
26 Q. GO AHEAD AND PUT "SCHOOL."
27 WHY DON'T YOU WRITE "SCHOOL."
28 A. ALL RIGHT.
154
1 AND THERE IS A GAS STATION HERE.
2 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS WRITING
3 DOWN "SCHOOL" AND "GAS STATION," AS SHE INDICATED IN HER
4 TESTIMONY, ON THE CHART.
5 Q. CAN YOU TELL US NOW -- CAN YOU INDICATE WITH A
6 SQUARE AND AN ARROW INDICATING YOUR DIRECTION WHERE YOUR
7 CAR WAS.
8 A. MY CAR IS HERE, GOING EASTBOUND ON SAN VICENTE,
9 AND A WHITE -- THE WHITE BRONCO WAS GOING NORTH ON BUNDY
10 WITH NO LIGHTS ON.
11 Q. WILL YOU PLEASE MAKE A SQUARE WITH A "B" INSIDE
12 OF IT.
13 A. OKAY.
14 SHALL I PUT IT WHERE IT STOPPED OR WHERE IT'S
15 GOING?
16 Q. EITHER ONE.
17 A. OKAY. WHERE IT STOPPED.
18 AND I STOPPED RIGHT HERE.
19 Q. YOU HAVE MADE ANOTHER CAR ON EASTBOUND
20 SAN VICENTE, INDICATING YOUR CAR.
21 CAN YOU PUT YOUR INITIALS BY THAT CAR, PLEASE.
22 A. OKAY. "J.S."
23 Q. THANK YOU.
24 A. AND THEN I WAS DRIVING EASTBOUND, AND AS I GET
25 TO THE INTERSECTION I HAVE THE GREEN.
26 A WHITE BRONCO RUNS THE RED LIGHT AND GOES
27 THROUGH THE INTERSECTION AND ALMOST HITS ME.
28 I ENDED UP SWERVING THIS WAY TOWARDS THE SCHOOL
155
1 AND THE BRONCO, WHICH WAS COMING AT ME, SWERVED AROUND AND
2 WENT THAT WAY.
3 Q. BEFORE YOU GET TO THAT, IS THERE ANOTHER CAR
4 INVOLVED IN THIS AS WELL?
5 A. YES.
6 THERE IS A NISSAN THAT I DIDN'T SEE UNTIL HE
7 HAD STOPPED RIGHT HERE BLOCKING THE BRONCO.
8 Q. CAN YOU PUT AN "N" IN THE SQUARE.
9 A. OKAY.
10 Q. NOW, YOU HAVE DRAWN IN EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO
11 DRAW?
12 A. RIGHT, I THINK SO.
13 Q. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A SEAT.
14 CAN YOU REACH WITH THE POINTER TO SHOW US?
15 A. SURE.
16 Q. SO YOU GOT TO THE INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE
17 AND BUNDY GOING EASTBOUND AT ABOUT 10:48 TO 10:50.
18 A. RIGHT.
19 Q. THERE WAS A TRAFFIC LIGHT THAT CONTROLLED THE
20 EAST/WEST TRAFFIC AS WELL AS THE NORTH/SOUTH TRAFFIC.
21 A. THAT'S TRUE.
22 Q. WAS THE LIGHT RED OR GREEN FOR YOU?
23 A. IT WAS GREEN FOR ME.
24 Q. WHICH WOULD MEAN, THEN, THAT IT WAS RED FOR
25 NORTH OR SOUTHBOUND TRAFFIC ON BUNDY.
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. AS YOU PROCEEDED TO THE INTERSECTION, WHAT
28 HAPPENED?
156
1 A. AS I PROCEEDED TO THE INTERSECTION, OUT OF THE
2 CORNER OF MY EYE I SAW SOMETHING, A WHITE CAR OR TRUCK,
3 BRONCO, COME RIGHT INTO MY -- IN FRONT OF ME AND IT DIDN'T
4 HAVE ANY LIGHTS ON. SO I COULDN'T SEE IT.
5 HE STOPPED -- HE STOPPED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
6 GRASSY MEDIAN RIGHT HERE AND HE TURNED AROUND AND LOOKED AT
7 ME.
8 Q. YOU SAY YOU STOPPED WHERE YOU WROTE "CAR" AND
9 "J.S."
10 A. RIGHT.
11 Q. IS THAT THE POINT WHEN YOU FIRST NOTICED HIM AS
12 HE WAS TRAVELING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY?
13 A. WHEN HE WAS -- THE FIRST TIME I NOTICED HIM WAS
14 WHEN HE WAS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME AND I THOUGHT I WAS
15 GOING TO HIT HIM.
16 Q. SO BY THAT TIME WAS THE WHITE CAR OVER THE
17 LIMIT LINE, RUNNING THE RED LIGHT?
18 A. YES, IT WAS.
19 IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF -- IT WAS IN FRONT OF
20 ME AND THEN IT ENDED UP STOPPING RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE.
21 Q. YOU ARE INDICATING, "RIGHT THERE IN THE
22 MIDDLE."
23 YOU HAVE THE SQUARE WITH THE "B" MARKED ON IT?
24 A. RIGHT.
25 Q. SO AFTER RUNNING THE RED LIGHT, IT GOT TO THAT
26 PART BETWEEN THE MEDIANS -- BETWEEN THE GRASS MEDIANS AND
27 STOPPED?
28 A. BETWEEN THE TWO LANES; RIGHT.
157
1 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
2 A. WELL, IT STOPPED, BECAUSE THERE WAS A CAR THAT
3 WAS GOING WESTBOUND, A NISSAN.
4 FROM WHAT I CAN PUT TOGETHER, THE NISSAN, I
5 THINK, STOPPED TO AVOID RUNNING INTO THE BRONCO.
6 BUT WHEN IT STOPPED, IT BLOCKED THE BRONCO AND
7 IT STOPPED RIGHT THERE.
8 AND THEN THE MAN IN THE BRONCO STARTED YELLING
9 AT THE GUY IN THE NISSAN TO MOVE HIS CAR.
10 Q. SO THE BRONCO KEPT ON GOING UP NORTHBOUND ON
11 BUNDY AFTER RUNNING THE RED LIGHT -- AFTER INITIALLY
12 RUNNING THAT RED LIGHT AT THE INTERSECTION WHERE IT WAS
13 EASTBOUND TRAFFIC ON BUNDY, IT KEPT ON GOING AND STOPPED AT
14 THE POINT WHERE YOU HAVE INDICATED?
15 A. RIGHT.
16 Q. AND THEN THERE WAS THAT CAR THAT YOU HAVE
17 MARKED IN A BOX WITH AN "N" IN IT THAT WAS BLOCKING ITS
18 PATH FROM GOING ANY FARTHER?
19 A. RIGHT.
20 Q. AT THAT POINT, THE BRONCO STOPPED?
21 A. THE BRONCO HAD TO STOP, BECAUSE THE CAR, THE
22 NISSAN WAS TRYING TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY, BUT THEY KEPT
23 MOVING THE SAME WAY.
24 LIKE THE BRONCO WOULD MOVE FORWARD, THE NISSAN
25 WOULD MOVE FORWARD.
26 SO THEN THEY BOTH STARTED TO MOVE BACKWARDS AND
27 THE BRONCO TRIED TO GO AROUND THE NISSAN IN THE BACK, BUT
28 THE NISSAN WAS BACKING UP.
158
1 SO THEY DID IT AGAIN IN THE FRONT.
2 AND THEN FINALLY THE NISSAN WENT AHEAD AND WENT
3 WEST AND THE BRONCO TURNED AND TOOK OFF BEHIND THE NISSAN
4 GOING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY.
5 Q. NOW, AT THE POINT THAT THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO
6 STOPPED, WAS THE NISSAN ACTUALLY BLOCKING HIS PATH?
7 A. YES, IT WAS.
8 Q. WAS THE DRIVER'S SIDE WINDOW OF THE BRONCO
9 OPENED OR CLOSED?
10 A. IT WAS OPENED.
11 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE PERSON SEATED IN THE
12 BRONCO?
13 A. YES, I WAS.
14 Q. AND HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE HIM?
15 A. HE TURNED AROUND AND GLARED AT ME AFTER HE HAD
16 ALMOST HIT ME, AND THEN I -- THEN HE STARTED YELLING AT THE
17 GUY IN THE NISSAN TO MOVE HIS CAR.
18 Q. SO WHEN YOU SAY HE TURNED AROUND AND GLARED AT
19 YOU, DID YOU ACTUALLY MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HIM?
20 A. YES, I DID.
21 Q. DID HE SAY ANYTHING?
22 A. NO. HE JUST GAVE ME A REAL QUICK LOOK, LIKE
23 WHAT WAS I -- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED LIKE HE WAS MAD OR ANGRY
24 AND LIKE WHAT WAS I DOING TO HIM OR SOMETHING.
25 I FELT LIKE HE WAS LOOKING AT ME LIKE I HAD
26 ALMOST HIT HIM OR SOMETHING.
27 Q. DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO THE DRIVER OF THE
28 NISSAN?
159
1 A. HE KEPT TELLING HIM, "GET OUT OF THE WAY; GET
2 OUT OF THE WAY. MOVE THE CAR; MOVE. GET OUT OF THE WAY."
3 AND THEN THE MORE HE YELLED, THE DRIVER OF THE
4 NISSAN, THE GUY IN THE NISSAN GOT UPSET AND HE WAS TRYING
5 TO GET HIS CAR OUT OF THE WAY.
6 BUT THEY WERE BOTH RUNNING INTO EACH OTHER EACH
7 WAY THEY WENT.
8 Q. DID THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO EVER PUT HIS HEAD
9 OUT THE WINDOW OR ANY PART OF HIS BODY OUT THE DRIVER'S
10 SIDE WINDOW?
11 A. HE STUCK HIS HAND AND LEANED OUT TO YELL AT THE
12 GUY.
13 Q. CAN YOU SHOW US WHAT THAT IS.
14 A. HE WENT LIKE THIS, "MOVE; GET OUT OF THE WAY;
15 MOVE," LIKE THAT.
16 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS HAS LEANED HER UPPER TORSO TO
17 THE LEFT AND EXTENDED HER ARMS OUT AND HER HEAD OUT WHILE
18 LEANING SIDEWAYS.
19 Q. DID THE NISSAN DRIVER SAY ANYTHING TO RESPONSE?
20 A. HE LOOKED SCARED.
21 HE LOOKED ANGRY AT FIRST, BUT THEN HE LOOKED
22 SCARED, BECAUSE SOMEONE -- HE WAS LIKE A MANIAC, SOMEONE
23 GONE CRAZY OR SOMETHING.
24 Q. NO; WAIT. NO; NO.
25 DON'T SPECULATE WHAT THE NISSAN DRIVER WAS
26 THINKING.
27 A. OKAY.
28 HE LOOKED SCARED AT FIRST, OR ANGRY, AND THEN
160
1 HE LOOKED SCARED.
2 Q. NOW, DID THAT YELLING OCCUR BEFORE OR AFTER YOU
3 MADE EYE CONTACT WITH HIM?
4 A. AFTER.
5 Q. SO FIRST HE LOOKED AT YOU --
6 A. HE GLANCED BACK AT ME AND I COULD SEE HIM
7 FULL-FACE DIAGONALLY.
8 THEN HE WAS YELLING AT THE DRIVER LIKE HE WAS
9 IN A HURRY TO GET OUT OF THE SITUATION HE WAS NOW IN.
10 Q. SO THEY WERE -- AS ONE WOULD PULL BACK, THE
11 OTHER PULLED BACK?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. AS ONE WOULD PULL FORWARD, THE OTHER WOULD PULL
14 FORWARD?
15 A. THREE TIMES. THEY DID IT THREE TIMES.
16 Q. DID THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO EVER ATTEMPT TO
17 PULL UP OVER THE MEDIAN?
18 A. HE WAS GOING TO GO UP OVER THE CURB, THE MEDIAN
19 CURB, BUT THE DRIVER OF THE NISSAN PULLED FORWARD.
20 AND THEN HE REALIZED THAT HE HAD TO GO BEHIND
21 THE NISSAN, BUT THE NISSAN THEN MOVED BACK.
22 THEN THEY WENT FORWARD AGAIN, AND THEN HE
23 FINALLY TOOK OFF. THE BRONCO TOOK OFF AFTER THAT.
24 Q. SO THE NISSAN DRIVER ULTIMATELY PULLED THE CAR
25 FORWARD ENOUGH --
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. -- THEN THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO --
28 A. SPED AROUND HIM, IN BACK OF HIM AND TOOK OFF
161
1 NORTH ON BUNDY.
2 Q. WERE THE HEADLIGHTS STILL OUT?
3 A. THEY WERE STILL OUT.
4 Q. AND HE WAS SPEEDING, GOING QUICKLY UP NORTH ON
5 BUNDY?
6 A. YEAH.
7 HE WAS GOING FAST BECAUSE YOU COULD HEAR LIKE
8 THE ENGINE WAS KIND OF ZOOMING, "WHOOM, WHOOM."
9 HE WAS REALLY MOVING, MOVING FAST.
10 Q. NOW, THE AREA THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT
11 WHOLE INTERSECTION WHERE YOU WITNESSED ALL THESE EVENTS, IS
12 IT DARK OR IS IT WELL LIT?
13 A. IT'S WELL LIT BY STREET LIGHTS AND A GAS
14 STATION THERE.
15 Q. WHERE YOU HAVE INDICATED?
16 A. RIGHT.
17 Q. SO WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE DRIVER VERY
18 CLEARLY?
19 A. I RECOGNIZED HIM RIGHT AWAY.
20 Q. AND WHO IS HE?
21 A. I SAW O.J. SIMPSON.
22 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD?
23 A. AT THE PARK, DIFFERENT SHOPS, THE POST OFFICE.
24 HE WAS OUT A LOT WHEN HE WAS AROUND. HE WAS
25 OUT ALL THE TIME.
26 HE WAS A COMMON FIGURE THERE IN THE VILLAGE.
27 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD HIM YELLING AT THE NISSAN
28 DRIVER, WAS THE VOICE FAMILIAR TO YOU?
162
1 A. YES.
2 THEN I CONFIRMED THAT IT WAS HIM. I KNEW RIGHT
3 AWAY IT WAS 100 PERCENT HIM.
4 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE NISSAN FOR US.
5 A. IT WAS A WHITE -- OH, THE NISSAN?
6 THE NISSAN WAS A GRAY TWO-DOOR. IT WAS JUST A
7 REGULAR PLAIN NISSAN, A SIMPLE MODEL; JUST A TWO-DOOR.
8 I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT KIND, BUT IT WAS A
9 TWO-DOOR LIGHT GRAY NISSAN.
10 Q. AND THE DRIVER, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIM.
11 A. HE WAS YOUNG. I'D SAY BETWEEN 18 AND 25 AND
12 LOOKED LIKE A YOUNG KID, A YOUNG GUY.
13 AND HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY FACIAL HAIR OR
14 ANYTHING. LIKE HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A COLLEGE STUDENT OR
15 SOMETHING.
16 MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE NEXT EXHIBIT,
17 YOUR HONOR, AS PEOPLE'S 23, IF I MAY.
18 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY DO SO.
19 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 23.
20 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON
21 SHOWN THERE.
22 A. YES, I DO.
23 Q. WHO IS THAT?
24 A. O.J. SIMPSON.
25 Q. IS THAT PERSON YOU SAW DRIVING THE FORD BRONCO
26 THAT NIGHT?
27 A. YES, IT IS.
28 Q. SHOWING YOU AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY
163
1 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 5.
2 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR SHOWN
3 IN THE PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN AS -A.
4 A. YES, I DO.
5 THAT'S THE EXACT CAR.
6 Q. THAT'S THE BRONCO YOU SAW O.J. SIMPSON DRIVING
7 THAT NIGHT JUNE 12, 1994?
8 A. IT IS. I CAN TELL.
9 AND THEN THE RIMS LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THE RIMS.
10 THEY WERE FLASHY. AND THE BACK BUMPER AND THE TWO-DOOR; IT
11 WAS ALL WHITE.
12 Q. AND YOU SAW THAT CAR AND YOU SAW THE DRIVER
13 VERY CLEARLY?
14 A. VERY CLEARLY.
15 I COULD SEE HIS FACE FULL VIEW LOOKING AT ME.
16 THERE WAS NO DOUBT.
17 Q. IF YOU KNOW, CAN YOU TELL US HOW FAR THE
18 INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY IS FROM THE LOCATION
19 OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
20 A. I LEARNED LATER THAT IT WAS LIKE TWO BLOCKS --
21 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW FROM PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE?
22 YOU DID NOT PERSONALLY EVER OBSERVE THE
23 DISTANCE BETWEEN THOSE LOCATIONS?
24 A. NO.
25 I NEVER DROVE IT MYSELF.
26 Q. OKAY. THEN DON'T TELL US.
27 CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU CAN BE SO SPECIFIC AS
28 TO THE TIME THAT ALL OF THESE EVENTS OCCURRED.
164
1 A. YES, I CAN.
2 I WAS TRYING TO GET TO A MARKET, WHICH WOULD
3 HAVE TAKEN ME ABOUT 5 MINUTES TO GET THERE, AND I THOUGHT
4 THAT IT CLOSED AT 11.
5 I HAD 15 MINUTES TO GET THERE AND -- I WANTED A
6 SALAD BAR AND I HAD 15 MINUTES TO GET THERE, GET A SALAD
7 BAR AND SO I KNEW THAT I HAD LEFT AT QUARTER TO 11.
8 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
9 NOTHING FURTHER.
10 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
11 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
12 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
13 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
14 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
15
16 (SHORT PAUSE.)
17
18 Q. BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU, IN FACT, GET TO THE
19 STORE BEFORE 11:00 O'CLOCK P.M.?
20 A. YES, I DID.
21 Q. DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY HOW MUCH BEFORE
22 11:00 O'CLOCK YOU GOT THERE?
23 A. WHEN I GOT THERE, I HAD 8 MINUTES TO GET A
24 SALAD BAR BY THE CLOCK IN MY CAR.
25 Q. SO BY THE CLOCK IN YOUR CAR, IT WAS 10:52.
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. DID YOU DRIVE STRAIGHT TO THE STORE AFTER
28 YOU -- AFTER THESE EVENTS OCCURRED?
165
1 A. FROM THERE, I WENT TO THE STORE AND PULLED INTO
2 THE PARKING LOT. AND AT THE TIME I PULLED INTO THE PARKING
3 LOT, IT WAS 8 MINUTES.
4 I WAS GOING TO RUN IN. I GOT OUT OF MY CAR AND
5 I RAN IN -- I WAS GOING TO GO INTO THERE AND THEY WERE
6 OPEN, BUT THEIR SALAD BAR WAS DOWN.
7 Q. HOW LONG, IF YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK IT TOOK YOU
8 FROM THE POINT YOU LEFT THE INTERSECTION TO GET TO THE
9 STORE?
10 A. A MINUTE OR TWO.
11 A MINUTE.
12 Q. SO YOU THINK YOU LEFT THAT INTERSECTION AT
13 ABOUT 10:50?
14 A. APPROXIMATELY; RIGHT.
15 Q. SO YOU LEFT THE INTERSECTION AND MR. SIMPSON
16 SPED UP BUNDY NORTH ON BUNDY AT ABOUT 10:50?
17 A. RIGHT.
18 I WAS AWARE OF THE TIME BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO
19 BEAT THE CLOCK.
20 Q. DID THE STORE CLOSE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK?
21 A. NO. IT ENDED UP CLOSING AT 12.
22 MS. CLARK: I SHOULD INDICATE FOR THE RECORD THE
23 QUESTIONS I'M ASKING NOW ARE FROM THE GRAND JURY.
24 WAS THE DRIVER OF THE NISSAN CAUCASIAN OR SOME
25 OTHER ETHNICITY?
26 A. CAUCASIAN.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THE GAS STATION WAS OPEN THAT
28 NIGHT?
166
1 A. I COULDN'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING OPENED
2 OR CLOSED.
3 ALL I REMEMBER, THERE WERE LOTS OF LIGHTS
4 AROUND.
5 I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT MR. SIMPSON WAS WEARING?
7 A. I REMEMBER IT AS BEING SOMETHING DARK.
8 I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING BESIDES DARK.
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THERE WERE LONG OR SHORT
10 SLEEVES?
11 A. I THINK IT WAS SHORT.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING BEAR ARMS?
13 A. I DO REMEMBER SEEING BEAR ARMS; RIGHT.
14 THAT'S WHY I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS SHORT
15 SLEEVED.
16 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
17 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
18 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
19
20 (SHORT PAUSE.)
21
22 Q. BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US THE
23 DISTANCE BETWEEN YOUR CAR -- I WILL ASK YOU FOR TWO
24 DIFFERENT POINTS:
25 YOU HAVE DEMONSTRATED ON THE CHART YOUR CAR AND
26 THE BRONCO, AND THE FIRST INDICATION IS WHERE THE BOX WITH
27 THE CAR WITH YOUR INITIALS AND THEN THE BRONCO IS THE BOX
28 WITH THE "B" IN IT.
167
1 WHAT WAS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN YOUR CAR AND THE
2 BRONCO AT THAT POINT?
3 A. IT WAS LIKE FROM WHERE I'M SITTING TO WHERE
4 THEY ARE SITTING RIGHT THERE.
5 SO I GUESS --
6 MS. CLARK: ESTIMATE 15, 20 FEET.
7 FOR THE RECORD, THE GRAND JURY ADVISOR JUST
8 PULLED OUT A CHART INDICATING DISTANCES AND CONFIRMED IT
9 WOULD BE AN ESTIMATE OF 15 TO 20 FEET.
10 Q. AGAIN, WHEN YOU PULLED ACROSS THE
11 INTERSECTION -- EXCUSE ME.
12 WHEN YOU FIRST MADE CONTACT OR FIRST SIGHTED
13 THE BRONCO, HOW CLOSE WERE YOU TO IT?
14 A. FROM -- WELL, HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME,
15 PROBABLY -- I DON'T KNOW.
16 I WANT TO SAY LIKE ALMOST FROM WHERE I'M
17 SITTING TO WHERE HE'S SITTING AND HE WENT RIGHT BESIDE ME.
18 I MISSED HIM BY, I'M SURE, INCHES. I ALMOST
19 HIT HIM.
20 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS
21 INDICATING FROM HERSELF TO THE COURT REPORTER, WHO IS NOW
22 SITTING MAYBE 3 FEET AWAY FROM HER.
23 THE WITNESS: RIGHT.
24 Q. BY MS. CLARK: DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO YOU,
25 3 FEET?
26 A. OR CLOSER.
27 I MEAN, IT WAS A WHITE BLUR RIGHT IN FRONT OF
28 ME.
168
1 I REMEMBER ALMOST HITTING HIM.
2 Q. WAS THE SIDE CLOSEST TO YOU THE DRIVER'S SIDE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND THE WINDOW WAS DOWN?
5 A. THE WINDOW WAS DOWN.
6 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
7 A. I WAS, YES.
8 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS
9 WEARING GLOVES?
10 A. I SAW HIS -- I DIDN'T SEE ANY GLOVES.
11 I SAW A HAND BECAUSE I COULD SEE -- I DIDN'T
12 SEE ANY GLOVES ON HIM.
13 Q. YOU SAID THAT -- YOU HAVE INDICATED TO US THAT
14 THE BRONCO WAS FLASHY.
15 A. ITS WHEELS, THEY SPARKLED IN THE LIGHT, THE
16 RIMS.
17 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
18 THE FOREPERSON: MISS SHIVELY, BEFORE YOU LEAVE,
19 PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO
20 YOU NOW:
21 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
22 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
23 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
24 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
25 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
26 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
27 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
28 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
169
1 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
2 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
3 YOU.
4 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
5 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
7 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
8 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
9
10 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
11 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
12
13 THE FOREPERSON: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY NOW PROCEED.
14 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE CALL SUKRU BOZTEPE.
15 THE FOREPERSON: SUKRU BOZTEPE?
16 THE WITNESS: YES.
17 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
18 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
19 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
20 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
21 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
22 THE WITNESS: YES, I SWEAR.
23 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
24 MR. BOZTEPE, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
25 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
26 THE WITNESS: S-U-K-R-U B-O-Z-T-E-P-E.
27 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
28 IF YOU WOULD PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE
170
1 RECORD.
2 THE WITNESS: SUKRU BOZTEPE.
3
4 SUKRU BOZTEPE,
5 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
6 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
7
8 E X A M I N A T I O N
9 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q. MR. BOZTEPE, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
11 DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, CAN YOU TELL US IN
12 THE GENERAL LOCATION YOU WERE LIVING.
13 A. I LIVE AT 11965 MONTANA AVENUE.
14 IT'S AROUND 500, 600 FEET FROM THE CRIME SCENE.
15 Q. OKAY.
16 ABOUT 500 OR 600 FEET FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
17 A. I GUESS SO, YEAH.
18 Q. WHAT ARE THE MAJOR CROSS STREETS NEAR YOUR
19 HOUSE?
20 A. BUNDY AND SAN VICENTE.
21 Q. ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994, WERE YOU OUT
22 THAT EVENING?
23 A. YES.
24 I WAS IN TORRANCE.
25 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET HOME?
26 A. 11:40.
27 Q. DO YOU LIVE IN AN APARTMENT BUILDING OR HOUSE?
28 A. APARTMENT BUILDING.
171
1 Q. WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING,
2 DID YOU SEE SOMETHING UNUSUAL?
3 A. YEAH.
4 OUR UPSTAIRS NEIGHBOR WAS SITTING WITH A BIG
5 DOG. SO IT WAS PRETTY UNUSUAL.
6 Q. HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT DOG BEFORE?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. DID YOU -- WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANY PETS
9 THAT LIVED IN THE BUILDING?
10 A. EXCUSE ME?
11 Q. DID YOU KNOW OF THE OTHER ANIMALS THAT MAY HAVE
12 LIVED IN THE BUILDING?
13 A. YES; YES.
14 Q. THAT DOG THAT YOU SAW, WAS IT WITH SOMEONE YOU
15 KNEW?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WAS THE DOG WITH SOMEONE YOU KNEW?
18 A. OH, YEAH.
19 Q. WHO WAS THE PERSON THE DOG WAS WITH?
20 A. OUR UPSTAIRS NEIGHBORS, STEVEN AND LINDA.
21 Q. DID THEY OWN ANY PETS?
22 A. YES; THEY HAVE ONE CAT AND ONE DOG.
23 Q. THAT WAS NOT THEIR DOG, I TAKE IT?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT THAT
26 DOG?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AFTER YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION, DID YOU DO
172
1 SOMETHING WITH THE DOG?
2 A. YEAH.
3 WE DECIDED TO TAKE THE DOG INSIDE OF OUR HOUSE
4 AND KEEP IT OVERNIGHT AND GIVE IT TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER THE
5 NEXT MORNING.
6 Q. DID YOU TAKE THE DOG TO YOUR APARTMENT THEN?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. HOW DID THE DOG BEHAVE IN YOUR APARTMENT?
9 A. HE WAS PRETTY NERVOUS AND HE WAS GOING TO THE
10 DOORS AND WINDOWS, RUNNING AROUND IN THE HOUSE.
11 SO IT WASN'T SO -- PRETTY NERVOUS.
12 Q. THE DOG WAS ACTING NERVOUS?
13 A. YEAH.
14 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS LEGS OR
15 HIS BODY?
16 A. ON THE LEGS, THERE WAS BLOOD.
17 Q. WAS IT WET OR DRY BLOOD?
18 A. DRY.
19 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
20 WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE DOG?
21 A. WELL, WE DIDN'T -- WE DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE
22 WITH THE DOG OVERNIGHT.
23 WE WANTED TO TAKE HIM FOR A WALK.
24 Q. BECAUSE HE WAS ACTING NERVOUS?
25 A. YEAH; AND WE THOUGHT WE CAN FIND THE OWNERS.
26 MAYBE THEY ARE SEARCHING FOR HER OR HIM.
27 SO WE TOOK HIM FOR A WALK.
28 Q. WHEN YOU TOOK HIM OUT FOR A WALK, DID YOU LEAD
173
1 HIM OR DID HE LEAD YOU?
2 A. I JUST LET THE DOG LEAD US.
3 Q. WHERE DID THE DOG LEAD YOU?
4 A. WE WENT TO BUNDY, TURNED LEFT AND DIRECTLY WENT
5 TO THE CRIME -- CRIME SCENE.
6 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE CRIME SCENE," YOU MEAN --
7 A. I DON'T KNOW THE ADDRESS. BUT IT'S ON BUNDY.
8 Q. SO THE DOG LED.
9 AS IT WENT UP BUNDY, DID IT BEHAVE CALMLY OR
10 CAN YOU DESCRIBE HOW IT BEHAVED?
11 A. WELL, AS SOON -- WHEN WE GET CLOSER TO THE
12 PLACE, HE STARTED TO PULL ME A LOT HARDER THAN NORMAL.
13 Q. HE SEEMED TO GET MORE EXCITED AS HE WENT UP
14 BUNDY?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WERE YOU WALKING NORTH ON BUNDY AT THAT POINT?
17 A. WE WERE WALKING FROM SAN VICENTE TO WILSHIRE,
18 FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.
19 Q. SO YOU WERE WALKING SOUTH ON BUNDY?
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. AND THE DOG SEEMED TO GET MORE EXCITED AS YOU
22 GOT -- AS YOU WENT FARTHER SOUTH ON BUNDY?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
25 A. AND IT WASN'T SO FAR.
26 WE WERE WALKING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF BUNDY ON
27 THE WALKWAY AND THE DOG STOPPED AND TURNED RIGHT AND LOOKED
28 AT -- AND I TURNED RIGHT AND LOOKED, TOO, AND I SEEN HER
174
1 BODY.
2 Q. WHERE DID THE DOG STOP?
3 WAS IT IN THE STREET? ON THE SIDEWALK?
4 A. ON THE SIDEWALK.
5 Q. WAS THERE A PATH THAT INTERSECTED WITH THE
6 SIDEWALK AT THAT POINT?
7 A. THERE WAS AN ENTRANCE TO THE HOUSE.
8 Q. A PATH LEADING TO THE HOUSE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID THE DOG STOP THERE?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. DID YOU STOP AS WELL?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE?
15 A. I SEEN HER BODY LAYING DOWN ON THE GROUND, ALL
16 OVER THE ENTRANCE.
17 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING CONDITION WHERE
18 HER BODY WAS.
19 A. IT WAS SO DARK. IT WAS REAL DARK. ONLY THE
20 STREET LIGHTS FROM -- FROM BACK, OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE
21 STREET.
22 AND THERE WAS A BIG TREE JUST IN FRONT OF THE
23 STREET, SO IT WAS SO DARK.
24 Q. SO HAD THE DOG NOT STOPPED, WOULD YOU HAVE
25 NOTICED THIS WOMAN LYING THERE?
26 A. NO; NO.
27 Q. WAS THERE ANY LIGHT COMING FROM THE BUILDING,
28 THE HOUSE?
175
1 A. NOT AS I REMEMBER, NO.
2 Q. HAVE YOU WALKED DOWN THAT SIDEWALK SINCE THAT
3 NIGHT AT NIGHT?
4 A. NO; NO.
5 Q. YOU HAVE NOT WALKED ON THAT STREET SINCE?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. WHEN THE DOG GOT TO THAT LOCATION AT THE
8 SIDEWALK AND PAST THE HOUSE, DID THE DOG STOP?
9 A. YES, THE DOG STOPPED AND TURNED RIGHT AND
10 LOOKED, LOOKED AT THE BODIES.
11 Q. THEN YOU LOOKED IN THE DIRECTION THE DOG
12 LOOKED?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS
15 PEOPLE'S 1.
16 I'M JUST GOING TO SHOW YOU THE TOP THREE
17 PHOTOGRAPHS AND ASK YOU IF THAT IS THE LOCATION AND THE
18 CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT WHEN YOU SAW IT.
19 I'M NOT GOING TO SHOW YOU THE REST OF THESE
20 PHOTOGRAPHS.
21 A. YES; YES.
22 Q. THAT'S THE LOCATION YOU ARE DESCRIBING?
23 IS THAT WOMAN YOU HAVE DESCRIBED SEEN LYING
24 DOWN?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU SAW HER?
27 A. I SAID TO MY WIFE TO CALL 911 AND WE CROSSED
28 THE STREET AND KNOCKED ON ONE OF THE HOUSE'S DOOR.
176
1 NO ONE CAME TO THE DOOR.
2 THERE WAS SOMEBODY WALKING ON THE STREET TO HER
3 CAR. WE SAID TO HER THAT SHE SHOULD CALL 911 AND SHE DROVE
4 AWAY.
5 THEN WE KNOCKED ON ANOTHER PERSON'S DOOR AND
6 SAID TO HIM HE SHOULD CALL 911 BECAUSE THERE IS A BODY
7 THERE.
8 Q. NOW, DID YOU GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE BODY?
9 A. NOT ANY FARTHER THAN THE SIDEWALK.
10 Q. SO YOU STAYED ON THE SIDEWALK?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. YOU DID NOT WALK UP THE PATH AT ALL?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. DID THE DOG GET NEAR TO THE BODY?
15 A. NO. EVEN HE DIDN'T WANT TO.
16 I MEAN, HE JUST STAYED THERE.
17 Q. HE STAYED BY YOU?
18 A. (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
19 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. DID YOU SEE THE POLICE ARRIVE?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. DID ANYONE WALK UP TO THE BODIES OR ANYWHERE
24 NEAR THE BODIES BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED?
25 A. NO; NO.
26 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER BODIES LYING THERE OTHER
27 THAN THAT OF THE WOMAN?
28 A. NO; ONLY THE WOMAN.
177
1 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
2 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
3 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
4 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
5 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
6
7 (SHORT PAUSE.)
8
9 MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY.
10 I HAVE ONE FURTHER QUESTION.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU TOOK
12 THE DOG OUT FOR THE WALK?
13 A. WELL, IT WAS AROUND 2 MINUTES BEFORE OR 2
14 MINUTES AFTER 12.
15 Q. YOU GOT HOME AT WHAT TIME?
16 A. 11:40.
17 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE BUILDING, OUTSIDE OF
18 WHAT YOU SAW, WHERE THE WOMEN'S BODY WAS LYING?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A CONDO OR SEVERAL
21 UNITS?
22 A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW.
23 MS. CLARK: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
24 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
25 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
26
27 (SHORT PAUSE.)
28
178
1 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WHERE WAS THE DRY BLOOD ON THE
2 DOG?
3 A. FOUR LEGS.
4 Q. ON HIS FOUR LEGS?
5 A. YEAH.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
7 MR. BOZTEPE, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY
8 TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
9 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
10 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
11 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
12 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
13 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
14 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
15 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
16 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
17 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
18 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
19 YOU.
20 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
21 THE WITNESS: YES.
22 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
23 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
24
25 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
26 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
27
28 MS. CLARK: THE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO CALL BETTINA
179
1 RASMUSSEN.
2 THE FOREPERSON: BETTINA RASMUSSEN?
3 THE WITNESS: YES.
4 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
5 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
6 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
7 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
8 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
9 THE WITNESS: YES.
10 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
11 MISS RASMUSSEN, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR
12 FULL NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
13 THE WITNESS: B-E-T-T-I-N-A; R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N IS MY
14 SURNAME.
15 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
16 IF YOU WOULD SCOOT UP JUST A LITTLE BIT.
17 YOU WILL NEED TO RAISE YOUR VOICE SO YOU WILL
18 BE ADDRESSING THE GENTLEMEN IN THE TWO FAR CORNERS OF THE
19 HEARING ROOM.
20 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
21 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
22 YOU MAY PROCEED.
23
24 BETTINA RASMUSSEN,
25 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
26 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
27
28
180
1 E X A M I N A T I O N
2 BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q. MISS RASMUSSEN, ARE YOU RELATED TO SUKRU
4 BOZTEPE?
5 A. YEAH. HE'S MY HUSBAND.
6 Q. DID YOU JUST SEE HIM LEAVE THE GRAND JURY ROOM
7 BEFORE YOU CAME IN NOW?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. WERE YOU WITH HIM ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12,
10 1994?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. WHEN YOU -- WERE YOU WITH HIM WHEN YOU WENT FOR
13 A WALK WITH THE DOG?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL BEING WITH HIM WHEN YOU SAW
16 THE WOMAN'S BODY?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. ON THAT NIGHT, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE
19 LIGHTING WAS LIKE AT THAT APARTMENT.
20 A. IT WAS VERY DARK.
21 THE ONLY LIGHTING THERE WAS THE STREET LIGHT.
22 IT WAS LIKE THIS YELLOW COLOR.
23 SEE, THE BUSHES AROUND THERE, IT WAS COMPLETELY
24 DARK, BECAUSE THERE WERE TREES AND BUSHES AROUND AND THERE
25 WAS NO LIGHT.
26 Q. THERE WAS NO LIGHT ON THE BUILDING IN FRONT OF
27 WHICH THE WOMAN'S BODY WAS LYING?
28 A. NO.
181
1 Q. HAVE YOU WALKED BY THAT HOUSE, THAT BUILDING,
2 SINCE THAT NIGHT?
3 A. WE HAVE BEEN DRIVING BY, YES.
4 Q. HAVE YOU DONE THAT AT NIGHT?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN A LIGHT THAT SHINES ON THE FRONT
7 OF THAT BUILDING SINCE THAT NIGHT?
8 A. THERE WAS -- LATER THERE WAS LIGHT AROUND THE
9 GATE, ACTUALLY IN BETWEEN WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE FOUND, AND
10 A BRIGHT LIGHT WHICH WASN'T THERE THAT NIGHT.
11 Q. SO THERE WAS A BRIGHT LIGHT ON THE GATE IN
12 BETWEEN WHERE THE TWO VICTIMS WERE FOUND ON THE NIGHTS
13 SINCE THAT NIGHT?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. BUT IT WAS NOT ON ON THE NIGHT YOU FOUND THE
16 BODIES.
17 A. NO.
18 MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY.
19 MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?
20 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY DO SO.
21
22 (SHORT PAUSE.)
23
24 Q. BY MS. CLARK: THE LOCATION YOU ARE DESCRIBING
25 WHERE YOU HAVE SINCE THAT NIGHT SEEN THE LIGHT SHINING,
26 THAT'S AT THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING?
27 A. THERE'S A KIND OF WALL AND THEN JUST A GATE
28 THAT YOU CAN OPEN UP AND THE LIGHT IS JUST AROUND THE GATE
182
1 ON THE WALL.
2 Q. IS IT ACTUALLY ON THE GATE?
3 A. I DIDN'T GET THAT CLOSE. I'M ONLY DRIVING BY
4 IN THE CAR. BUT IT WAS MAKING THE AREA BRIGHT AND MAYBE
5 BEHIND.
6 BUT ALL THIS AREA WAS LIGHTING UP, BUT IT
7 WASN'T THAT NIGHT.
8 THE POLICE CAME LATER WITH THE FLASHLIGHT. AND
9 WE WOULD NEED A LIGHT TO SEE LATER.
10 Q. IT WAS DARK IN THE AREA WHERE YOU FOUND HER,
11 THE VICTIM?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND THAT LIGHT WAS NOT SHINING?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. THE WHOLE AREA SINCE THAT BODY WAS FOUND, THE
16 WHOLE AREA HAS BEEN BRIGHTLY LIT?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE AREA WAS LIT ON NIGHTS
19 BEFORE THE BODY WAS FOUND?
20 A. I NEVER REALLY CARED ABOUT THIS AREA. I NEVER
21 WALKED BY, ALWAYS JUST DRIVING BY.
22 THE ONLY REASON WE CAME DOWN WAS BECAUSE OF THE
23 DOG.
24 Q. SO YOU HAD NO OCCASION TO LOOK OR NOTICE IT
25 BEFORE?
26 A. NO.
27 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
28 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
183
1 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
2 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
3 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
4
5 (SHORT PAUSE.)
6
7 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL
8 QUESTIONS, MISS RASMUSSEN, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN
9 VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
10 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
11 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
12 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
13 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
14 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
15 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
16 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
17 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
18 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
19 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
20 YOU.
21 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
22 THE WITNESS: YEAH.
23 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
24 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
25
26 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
27 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
28
184
1 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE WILL CALL MR. DE BELLO.
2 THE FOREPERSON: JOHN DE BELLO?
3 THE WITNESS: YES.
4 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
5 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
6 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
7 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
8 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
9 THE WITNESS: I DO.
10 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
11 MR. DE BELLO, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
12 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
13 THE WITNESS: JOHN ANTHONY DE BELLO.
14 LAST NAME IS D-E CAPITAL B-E-L-L-O.
15
16 JOHN ANTHONY DE BELLO,
17 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
18 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 E X A M I N A T I O N
21 BY MR. CONN:
22 Q. SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOUR OCCUPATION IS.
23 A. I'M GENERAL MANAGER OF MEZZALUNA RESTAURANT.
24 Q. WHERE IS THAT LOCATED?
25 A. 11750 SAN VICENTE BOULEVARD, BRENTWOOD.
26 Q. HOW FAR IS THAT FROM THE INTERSECTION OF
27 SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY?
28 A. IT'S ROUGHLY ABOUT A HALF-MILE.
185
1 MR. CONN: I HAVE TWO PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH I WOULD LIKE
2 TO MARK AT THIS TIME. ACTUALLY, THEY ARE D.M.V.
3 PRINTOUTS.
4 THE FIRST ONE DEPICTS A MAN.
5 IF THAT MAY BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 24 FOR
6 IDENTIFICATION.
7 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 24.)
8 MR. CONN: AND THE SECOND ONE DEPICTS A WOMAN.
9 IF THAT MAY BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 25 FOR
10 IDENTIFICATION.
11 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
12 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 25.)
13 Q. BY MR. CONN: SIR, AT THIS TIME I WOULD LIKE
14 TO SHOW YOU TWO PHOTOSGRAPHS WHICH I HAVE JUST MARKED AS 24
15 AND 25 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
16 DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION FIRST TO 24 FOR
17 IDENTIFICATION, THE PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MAN.
18 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE MAN THAT IS DEPICTED IN
19 THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
20 A. YES, I DO.
21 Q. WHAT IS THAT MAN'S NAME?
22 A. RONALD GOLDMAN.
23 Q. WHERE DO YOU KNOW THAT MAN FROM?
24 A. HE WAS MY EMPLOYEE AT MEZZALUNA RESTAURANT.
25 HE WAS A WAITER.
26 I HIRED HIM 4 MONTHS AGO.
27 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE WOMAN WHOSE
28 PHOTO APPEARS IN PEOPLE'S 25 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
186
1 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT WOMAN?
2 A. YES, I DO.
3 Q. WHERE DO YOU KNOW HER FROM?
4 A. DINING AT THE RESTAURANT.
5 SHE WAS A STEADY CUSTOMER.
6 Q. DID YOU EVER SPEAK TO HER ON OCCASION?
7 A. ON OCCASION I WOULD SAY, "HELLO. HOW'S
8 EVERYTHING? HOW IS YOUR DINNER THIS EVENING? IS EVERYBODY
9 ENJOYING THEMSELVES?"
10 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HER NAME WAS?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT WAS HER NAME?
13 A. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
14 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO JUNE 12, 1994, WERE
15 YOU WORKING ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY?
16 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
17 Q. WAS MR. GOLDMAN ALSO WORKING THAT DAY?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. HOW MANY WAITERS DID YOU HAVE AT THE RESTAURANT
20 THAT EVENING?
21 A. I HAD THREE WAITERS ON THAT EVENING.
22 Q. WOULD THAT MEAN TWO IN ADDITION TO MR. GOLDMAN?
23 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
24 Q. WHAT WERE THE NAMES OF THE OTHER TWO THAT WERE
25 WORKING THAT EVENING?
26 A. TIA SMITH AND HEATHER NYGREN.
27 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHEN YOU GOT TO THE RESTAURANT
28 THAT DAY?
187
1 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS 6:45 EXACTLY.
2 Q. WOULD THAT BE P.M.?
3 A. P.M.
4 Q. DID YOU SEE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON THAT EVENING?
5 A. YES, I DID.
6 Q. WAS SHE THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE
7 RESTAURANT?
8 A. YES, SHE WAS.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE THE PARTY THAT SHE WAS WITH?
10 A. YES, I DID.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE SIZE OF THE PARTY THAT SHE
12 WAS WITH?
13 A. IT WAS A PARTY OF TEN PEOPLE.
14 Q. WHO WAS THE WAITER THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO HER
15 PARTY OF TEN THAT EVENING?
16 A. TIA SMITH.
17 Q. WHERE WAS RON ASSIGNED THAT EVENING?
18 A. RON WAS ASSIGNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT
19 SECTION.
20 WE SPLIT THE RESTAURANT IN THREE SECTIONS.
21 Q. NOW, DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME -- DID RON WAIT ON
22 THE TABLE IN WHICH SHE AND HER PARTY WERE SEATED THAT
23 EVENING?
24 A. NO, HE DID NOT.
25 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME RON LEFT -- LET ME ASK
26 YOU THIS FIRST:
27 DO THE WAITERS CLOCK OUT AT THE END OF AN
28 EVENING?
188
1 A. YES, THEY DO.
2 IT'S MANDATORY.
3 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME RON CLOCKED OUT THAT
4 EVENING?
5 A. YES, I DO.
6 HE INITIALLED HIS TIME CARD AT 9:33 P.M.
7 Q. DID RON TELL YOU BEFORE HE LEFT WHERE HE WAS
8 GOING?
9 A. HE DIDN'T TELL ME WHERE HE WAS GOING; I KNEW
10 WHERE HE WAS GOING FROM MY BAR MANAGER.
11 Q. AFTER HE CLOCKED OUT, DID HE REMAIN FOR AWHILE
12 AFTER THAT?
13 A. YES, HE DID.
14 Q. AND APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG DID HE REMAIN AFTER
15 9:33?
16 A. APPROXIMATELY ABOUT 15 TO 20 MINUTES.
17 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING DURING THAT TIME AFTER HE
18 CLOCKED OUT?
19 A. HE WAS SPEAKING WITH ME.
20 Q. AFTER SPEAKING TO YOU, DID HE SPEAK TO ANY OF
21 THE OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE HE LEFT?
22 A. OTHER WAITERS, THE FELLOW EMPLOYEES.
23 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE RON GOLDMAN LIVED?
24 A. HE LIVED A FEW BLOCKS FROM THE RESTAURANT.
25 Q. HAD YOU EVER BEEN TO HIS RESTAURANT?
26 A. HIS HOME?
27 Q. I'M SORRY; HIS HOME.
28 A. NO.
189
1 Q. DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE A PAIR OF GLASSES THAT
2 EVENING THAT WAS DISCUSSED?
3 A. YES, I DID.
4 Q. AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THE GLASSES?
5 A. I SAW MY BAR MANAGER PICKING THEM UP OFF THE
6 SIDEWALK IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT.
7 Q. AND WHO WAS THE BAR MANAGER?
8 A. KAREN CRAWFORD.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT SHE DID WITH THE GLASSES AFTER
10 SHE PICKED THEM UP?
11 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
12 MS. CLARK: THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS WE HAVE AT THIS
13 TIME.
14 THE FOREPERSON: DO ANY MEMBERS --
15 MR. CONN: I'M SORRY.
16 I DO HAVE ONE ADDITIONAL QUESTION.
17 Q. DO THE WAITERS WEAR A PARTICULAR TYPE OF
18 UNIFORM?
19 A. YES, THEY DO.
20 Q. AND WHAT TYPE OF UNIFORM IS THAT?
21 A. IT WOULD BE BLACK PANTS, DRESS PANTS OR BLACK
22 JEANS, WHITE SHIRT, TIE AND A VEST, A MULTI-COLORED VEST OR
23 ANY COLOR THAT THEY HAVE AVAILABLE.
24 Q. AND WAS RON WEARING THAT UNIFORM, THAT TYPE OF
25 UNIFORM THAT EVENING?
26 A. YES, HE WAS.
27 Q. WAS HE WEARING THAT UNIFORM AT THE TIME THAT HE
28 LEFT THE RESTAURANT?
190
1 A. YES, HE WAS.
2 Q. WERE THERE ANY CHILDREN INCLUDED IN THE PARTY
3 OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S?
4 A. YES, THERE WAS.
5 THERE WERE HER TWO CHILDREN AND TWO FRIENDS OF
6 THEIRS, AS I RECALL.
7 Q. DID YOU SEE RON GOLDMAN ACTUALLY EXIT THE
8 RESTAURANT?
9 A. NO, I DID NOT.
10 Q. AT THE MOMENT THAT YOU LAST SAW HIM, WHERE WAS
11 HE AND WHERE WAS HE HEADED?
12 A. WELL, HE WAS SPEAKING WITH ME BEHIND THE BAR.
13 THAT'S THE LAST TIME I SAW HIM.
14 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AGAIN AFTER THAT?
15 A. NO, I DID NOT.
16 Q. IN ORDER TO LEAVE THE RESTAURANT, OTHER THAN
17 THE FRONT ENTRANCE, IS THERE A SIDE EXIT?
18 A. YES, THERE IS.
19 Q. TO USE THAT SIDE EXIT, DO YOU HAVE TO GO BY THE
20 BAR AREA TO GET OUT THAT WAY?
21 A. YES, YOU DO.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE RON NORMALLY PARKED HIS CAR?
23 A. WELL, IT'S RANDOM PARKING IN BRENTWOOD.
24 SO USUALLY IT WOULD BE CLOSEST TO THE
25 RESTAURANT THAT YOU COULD FIND A SPACE, METERED PARKING
26 AREA OR SOMEWHERE ON ADJACENT STREETS.
27 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU LAST SAW RON GOLDMAN, WAS
28 HE CARRYING ANYTHING?
191
1 A. NO. HE HAD NOTHING IN HIS HANDS.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF CAR RON WAS DRIVING
3 THAT EVENING?
4 A. A SMALL SUBCOMPACT CAR.
5 I BELIEVE IT WAS RED. I'M NOT SURE.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME THE DINNER PARTY WAS
7 OVER, OR THE TIME THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON LEFT?
8 A. IT WAS ABOUT 8:30, 8:40 P.M.
9 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS I HAVE.
10 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
11 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
12 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
13 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
14
15 (SHORT PAUSE.)
16
17 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
18 MR. DE BELLO, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
19 CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
20 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
21 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
22 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
23 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
24 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
25 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
26 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
27 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
28 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
192
1 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
2 YOU.
3 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
4 THE WITNESS: YES.
5 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
6 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
7 THE WITNESS: YOU ARE WELCOME.
8
9 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
10 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
11
12 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY PROCEED.
13 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
14 THE PEOPLE WOULD CALL MR. JOSE CAMACHO.
15 THE FOREPERSON: JOSE CAMACHO?
16 THE WITNESS: YES.
17 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
18 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
19 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
20 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
21 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
22 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
23 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
24 MR. CAMACHO, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
25 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
26 THE WITNESS: JOSE, J-O-S-E, LAST NAME C-A-M-A-C-H-O,
27 CAMACHO.
28 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
193
1 YOU MAY PROCEED.
2
3 JOSE CAMACHO,
4 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
5 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
6
7 E X A M I N A T I O N
8 BY MR. CONN:
9 Q. SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE IT IS THAT YOU WORK.
10 A. I WORK AT 306 -- EXCUSE ME -- 310 SOUTH
11 BROADWAY IN DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES.
12 Q. WHAT TYPE OF BUSINESS IS THAT?
13 A. IT'S A CUTLERY SHOP.
14 WE SELL KNIVES, SCISSORS, CLIPPERS, DRIERS,
15 DIFFERENT ITEMS.
16 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WORKING THERE AT THAT
17 LOCATION?
18 A. I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 22 YEARS.
19 Q. WHAT IS YOUR JOB THERE?
20 A. I'M A SALESMAN.
21 Q. WHO IS THE OWNER OF THE BUSINESS?
22 A. SIR RICHARD WATTENBERG AND ALLEN WATTENBERG.
23 Q. HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT LAST NAME?
24 A. W-A-T-T-E-N-B-E-R-G, WATTENBERG.
25 Q. THAT'S RICHARD AND ALLEN.
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DID BOTH OF THOSE MEN ALSO WORK THERE?
28 A. YES.
194
1 Q. IN ADDITION TO YOURSELF AND RICHARD AND ALLEN,
2 ARE THERE ALSO OTHER SALESMEN WHO WORK THERE?
3 A. YEAH. WE ARE ALL TOGETHER.
4 WE ARE SEVEN SALESMEN.
5 Q. NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH.
6 I WILL SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH MARKED PEOPLE'S 23
7 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
8 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE MAN WHO IS SHOWN IN THAT
9 PHOTOGRAPH?
10 A. YES, I DO.
11 Q. WHO IS THAT MAN THAT YOU SEE BEFORE YOU.
12 A. IT'S O.J. SIMPSON.
13 Q. HAVE YOU MET O.J. SIMPSON IN THE PAST?
14 A. NO.
15 I JUST MET HIM THAT TIME.
16 Q. YOU SAY YOU JUST MET HIM "THAT TIME."
17 WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO.
18 A. THE DAY THAT THEY WERE FILMING A MOVIE OR
19 COMMERCIAL THERE AT THE STORE.
20 Q. WERE THEY FILMING THE MOVIE OR THE COMMERCIAL
21 INSIDE THE STORE ITSELF?
22 A. NO; OUTSIDE ON THE SIDEWALK.
23 Q. AND APPROXIMATELY WHEN WAS THIS?
24 A. OH, THE DATE I DON'T REMEMBER. BUT IT'S LIKE
25 6, 7 WEEKS AGO OR 2 MONTHS.
26 I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
27 Q. ON THAT OCCASION, DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
28 TO MEET HIM THAT DAY?
195
1 A. YEAH.
2 HE CAME INTO THE STORE AND HE ASKED FOR KNIVES,
3 YOU KNOW, TO SHOW HIM SOME KNIVES.
4 Q. DID HE ASK FOR ANY PARTICULAR TYPE OF KNIFE?
5 A. NO, SIR.
6 Q. DID HE -- WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE
7 CONVERSATION, AS TO HOW IT WENT.
8 AFTER HE CAME IN THE DOOR, DID YOU BEGIN TO
9 SPEAK OR DID ENGINE TO SPEAK?
10 A. NO.
11 HE JUST CAME INTO THE STORE AND I JUST ASKED
12 HIM IF HE NEEDS SOME HELP.
13 AND HE JUST WANTED TO SEE SOME KNIVES. THAT'S
14 ALL.
15 Q. DID YOU SHOW HIM SOME KNIVES?
16 A. YES, I DID.
17 Q. DID HE DESCRIBE ANY PARTICULAR KNIFE THAT HE
18 WAS LOOKING FOR?
19 A. NO, NOTHING SPECIAL.
20 Q. HOW DID YOU DECIDE WHAT KNIFE TO SHOW HIM THEN?
21 A. HE ASKED ME FOR SOME PARTICULAR KNIFE THAT I
22 SHOWED HIM, AND HE LIKED IT, AND HE SAID HE WILL COME BACK
23 LATER TO BUY IT BECAUSE AT THAT TIME HE DIDN'T HAVE NO
24 MONEY.
25 SO HE LEFT, AND THEN HE CAME BACK ABOUT AN HOUR
26 OR 45 MINUTES LATER.
27 Q. NOW, IN ORDER TO SHOW HIM THAT KNIFE THAT YOU
28 SAID HE LIKED, DID HE POINT TO IT OR DID YOU POINT TO IT,
196
1 OR HOW DID YOU SELECT UPON -- HOW DID HE SELECT THAT
2 KNIFE?
3 A. WELL, WHEN HE TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO COME
4 BACK, ON HIS WAY OUT, HE SAW THE OTHER KNIVES THAT WE HAD
5 IN THE ENTRANCE TO THE STORE AND I THINK HE LIKED THAT ONE.
6 Q. SO ON THE WAY OUT HE POINTED TO A KNIFE?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. AND SAID THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE THAT HE
9 LIKED?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO BE BACK?
12 A. YEAH, HE TOLD ME THAT.
13 Q. AND HOW LONG -- DID HE RETURN LATER?
14 A. YEAH. HE CAME BACK, LIKE I SAY.
15 LIKE 45 MINUTES OR AN HOUR LATER, HE CAME BACK.
16 Q. AND WHEN HE CAME BACK, DID HE PURCHASE A KNIFE?
17 A. YES, HE DID.
18 Q. WHAT TYPE OF KNIFE WAS THAT THAT HE PURCHASED?
19 A. IT'S A FOLDING KNIFE. YOU KNOW, IT CLOSES.
20 IT'S CALLED A STILETTO KNIFE.
21 Q. NOW, SOME TIME LATER DID THE POLICE SPEAK TO
22 YOU ABOUT THIS SALE THAT YOU MADE TO HIM?
23 A. YEAH.
24 THEY CAME BACK ABOUT -- WELL, LAST WEEK, I
25 THINK, TUESDAY OR WEDNESDAY.
26 Q. AND DID YOU TELL THE POLICE ABOUT THE KNIFE
27 THAT YOU HAD SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
28 A. YEAH.
197
1 THEY ASKED WHAT KIND OF A KNIFE THAT HE
2 PURCHASED, AND I TOLD THEM WHAT KIND.
3 Q. DID YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND HE HAD PURCHASED
4 FROM YOU?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND DID YOU ALSO MAKE A SALE TO THE POLICE?
7 A. YES. I SOLD THEM A KNIFE IDENTICAL OR SIMILAR
8 TO IT.
9 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "SIMILAR," ARE YOU SAYING THE
10 SAME KIND OF KNIFE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. THE SAME SIZE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
13 A. YEAH, I'D SAY IT WAS THE SAME SIZE.
14 Q. I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU ANOTHER SERIES OF
15 PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 21 FOR
16 IDENTIFICATION.
17 DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PHOTO EXHIBIT
18 WHICH I HAVE PLACED ON THE BOARD, PEOPLE'S 21, WHICH SHOWS
19 FOUR PICTURES OF A KNIFE.
20 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN IN
21 THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. IS THAT THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
24 THE POLICE OFFICERS IN THIS CASE?
25 A. YES, IT'S THE SAME ONE.
26 Q. IS THAT ALSO IDENTICAL IN SIZE AND APPEARANCE
27 TO THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON SOME TIME AGO?
28 A. YOU KNOW, WE SELL TWO SIZES; RIGHT? BUT IT
198
1 LOOKS IDENTICAL.
2 THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SMALLER ONE IS
3 LIKE 2 INCHES.
4 I CANNOT SAY EXACTLY WHICH ONE HE GOT, THE REAL
5 BIG ONE OR THE SMALL ONE. BUT, LIKE I SAY, IT'S THE SAME
6 KNIFE.
7 Q. LET ME GO THROUGH THAT.
8 YOU SELL THIS PARTICULAR KNIFE. LET ME SEE IF
9 THERE IS A NAME FOR IT.
10 ON THE KNIFE IT SAYS THE WORD "STILETTO," AND
11 UNDERNEATH THE WORD "STILETTO" IT SAYS THE WORD
12 "GERMANY."
13 A. YES.
14 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS KNIFE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. IS THIS A KNIFE THAT YOU HAVE CARRIED AT YOUR
17 STORE FOR A LONG TIME?
18 A. YEAH, FOR A LONG TIME.
19 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT
20 KINDS OF KNIFE OF THE SAME TYPE, ARE YOU REFERRING TO TWO
21 KNIVES THAT BOTH SAY, "STILETTO, GERMANY" ON THEM?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND THEY ARE DIFFERENT SIZES?
24 A. LIKE I SAY, LIKE 2 INCHES IS THE DIFFERENCE.
25 Q. AND WHEN YOU SAY, "2 INCHES," DOES THAT MEAN
26 2 INCHES IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL LENGTH OF THE KNIFE?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. SO IF YOU WERE TO COMPARE BOTH KNIVES, WOULD
199
1 BOTH THE BLADE AND THE HANDLE BE A LITTLE BIT SHORTER ON
2 ONE KNIFE, OR WOULD, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BLADES BE THE SAME ON
3 BOTH KNIVES OR THE HANDLES BE THE SAME ON BOTH KNIVES?
4 A. NO. IT WOULD BE SMALLER IN OVERALL LENGTH.
5 Q. SO BECAUSE IT HAS -- SINCE ONE IS 2 INCHES
6 SHORTER, BOTH THE HANDLE --
7 A. THE HANDLE HAS TO BE SMALLER, TOO.
8 Q. AND THE BLADE IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT
9 SMALLER?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. NOW, WHEN THE POLICE CAME AND ASKED YOU ABOUT
12 THE TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU PURCHASED -- OR THAT YOU SOLD
13 THAT DAY, DID THEY QUESTION YOU CONCERNING THE SIZE OF THE
14 KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DID THEY ASK YOU TO TRY TO REMEMBER, AS BEST
17 YOU COULD, AS TO THE SIZE THAT YOU SOLD MR. SIMPSON?
18 A. YES, THEY DID.
19 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR BELIEF AT THAT TIME AS TO THE
20 SIZE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
21 WAS IT YOUR BELIEF AT THE TIME THAT YOU SOLD
22 HIM THE SMALLER OF THE TWO KNIVES OR THE LARGER OF THE TWO
23 KNIVES?
24 A. NO. THE LARGER WOULD BE -- THE LARGEST SIZE,
25 BECAUSE HE LIKED THE SIZE.
26 Q. YOU RECALL HIM LIKING THE SIZE?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES, OR
200
1 DID YOU JUST SHOW HIM ONE SIZE?
2 A. NO, I SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES, DID YOU SHOW
4 HIM BOTH SIZES AT THE SAME TIME?
5 A. ONE AFTER THE OTHER, YEAH.
6 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL HIM SELECTING THE LARGER
7 KNIFE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. IS THAT YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION TODAY, THAT HE
10 SELECTED THE LARGER KNIFE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. NOW, THAT KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN ON THE -- IN THE
13 PHOTOGRAPHS THERE, IN PEOPLE'S 21, CAN YOU SEE THE RULER
14 THAT IS HELD NEXT TO THE KNIFE?
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. DOES THAT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE THE LARGER KNIFE
17 OF THE TWO TYPES OF KNIVES THAT IS AVAILABLE?
18 A. THAT ONE LOOKS LIKE THE SMALLER SIZE.
19 Q. WELL, WHEN YOU SOLD THE KNIFE TO THE POLICE,
20 DID THE POLICE DISCUSS WITH YOU WHETHER OR NOT -- WELL, DID
21 YOU DISCUSS WITH THE POLICE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TWO
22 KINDS OF THE SAME KIND OF KNIFE?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT
25 YOU SOLD THE LARGER OF THE TWO KNIVES?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DID THE POLICE ASK YOU TO SELL THEM THE SAME
28 TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
201
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND DID YOU SELL THEM --
3 A. YES.
4 Q. -- THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU RECALL
5 SELLING TO MR. SIMPSON?
6 A. TO THE BEST THAT I REMEMBER, YES.
7 Q. AND TODAY, AS YOU LOOK BACK ON THAT SALE, IS IT
8 YOUR RECOLLECTION AT THIS TIME THAT THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD
9 TO MR. SIMPSON WAS THE LARGER OF THE TWO KNIVES?
10 A. THAT'S RIGHT; I BELIEVE I SOLD HIM THE BIG
11 ONE.
12 LIKE I SAY, IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER, YOU KNOW.
13 Q. IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER WHAT?
14 A. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
15 I JUST SOLD THE KNIFE.
16 Q. OKAY.
17 BUT WHEN -- I JUST WANTED YOU TO BE SURE ABOUT
18 WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO HERE TODAY.
19 IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT,
20 TELL US YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT IT.
21 DO YOU RECALL SELLING A KNIFE TO MR. SIMPSON?
22 A. YES, I DID, SIR.
23 Q. DO YOU RECALL SELLING A KNIFE TO THE POLICE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. ARE YOU SURE THAT THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
26 THE POLICE WAS THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
27 MR. SIMPSON?
28 A. YES. THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER.
202
1 Q. NOW, AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE THIS SALE, WERE
2 OTHER MEMBERS OF YOUR STORE ALSO INVOLVED IN THE SALE?
3 A. AT FIRST, I WAITED ON HIM. AND THEN ALLEN CAME
4 IN AND START TALKING TO HIM.
5 AND THEN HE ASKED IF WE CAN SHARPEN THE KNIFE.
6 SO WE DID, YOU KNOW.
7 Q. THE KNIFE THAT WAS SOLD TO HIM?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHO SHARPENED THAT KNIFE FOR HIM?
10 A. ALLEN.
11 Q. ALLEN?
12 A. YEAH, MY BOSS.
13 Q. WAS THE KNIFE SHARPENED BEFORE OR AFTER THE
14 SALE?
15 A. ONCE -- WELL, I WENT TO THE REGISTER, YOU KNOW,
16 TO RING THE SALE, AND THEN ALLEN TOOK THE KNIFE BACK TO THE
17 SHOP TO SHARPEN IT.
18 Q. AND WERE ANY OF THE SALESMEN ALSO INVOLVED IN
19 SEEING THIS KNIFE THAT WAS SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON BESIDES
20 YOURSELF AND ALLEN?
21 A. RICHARD.
22 Q. ALL RIGHT.
23 A. BUT RICHARD, YOU KNOW, HE WAS JUST TALKING TO
24 HIM. HE DIDN'T --
25 Q. I'M SORRY.
26 A. RICHARD WAS JUST TALKING TO HIM.
27 HE DIDN'T -- YOU KNOW, HE DIDN'T HAVE NOTHING
28 TO DO WITH THE SALE.
203
1 Q. OKAY.
2 NOW, THESE TWO KNIVES THAT ARE SOLD, ARE THEY
3 DIFFERENT PRICES?
4 A. YEAH.
5 THE BIG ONE IS $74, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
6 Q. AND THE SMALL ONE?
7 A. I THINK THE SMALL ONE IS $59.
8 Q. AND WHEN YOU MAKE A SALE, DO YOU GIVE RECEIPTS
9 TO THE CUSTOMER?
10 A. YEAH, WE DO GIVE THE RECEIPTS.
11 Q. DO YOU ALSO KEEP A COPY OF THE RECEIPT FOR
12 YOURSELF?
13 A. NOT REALLY, SIR, UNLESS THEY BUY LARGE
14 QUANTITIES. THEN WE MAKE A SPECIAL RECEIPT.
15 BUT IF IT'S JUST OUR REGULAR SALE, WE JUST GIVE
16 THEM THE REGISTER TAPE.
17 Q. BUT SALES ARE RUNG UP ON THE CASH REGISTER?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WOULD A SALE FOR THAT DAY REFLECT THE AMOUNT OF
20 PURCHASES THAT WERE MADE BY PEOPLE THAT DAY?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. THANK YOU.
23 310 SOUTH BROADWAY, IS THAT THE BRADBURY
24 BUILDING?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THE DAY THAT MR. SIMPSON PURCHASED THE KNIFE,
27 WAS THAT THE SAME DAY THAT THE FILMING WAS TAKING PLACE
28 OUTSIDE?
204
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THAT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND HOW DID MR. SIMPSON PAY FOR THE KNIFE?
5 A. HE PAID ME WITH A $100 BILL.
6 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
7 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
8 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
9 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
10 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
11
12 (SHORT PAUSE.)
13
14 Q. BY MR. CONN: DO YOU RECALL HOW MANY KNIVES
15 MR. SIMPSON LOOKED AT THAT DAY?
16 A. ONLY THREE KNIVES.
17 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE OTHER KNIVES LOOKED
18 LIKE?
19 A. WELL, THE OTHER ONE WAS A CASE KNIFE, A HUNTING
20 KNIFE, SMALLER VERSION.
21 Q. WHAT ELSE DID HE LOOK AT?
22 A. JUST THAT AND THE OTHER TWO, THIS BIG ONE AND
23 THE SMALLER ONE.
24 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THIS BIG ONE," YOU ARE TALKING
25 ABOUT THE KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN
26 PEOPLE'S 21.
27 IS THAT CORRECT?
28 A. YES.
205
1 Q. HE ALSO LOOKED AT THE SMALLER VERSION OF THAT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THAT HUNTING KNIFE, THAT
4 CASE KNIFE THAT HE LOOKED AT?
5 A. OH, THAT IS JUST ABOUT 7-1/2.
6 Q. THE OVERALL LENGTH?
7 A. YEAH, THE OVERALL LENGTH.
8 Q. WHEN THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS OPENED UP, DOES THE
9 BLADE LOCK IN PLACE?
10 A. YES, IT LOCKS.
11 Q. BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED, DID YOU KNOW THAT
12 THE POLICE WERE COMING TO SPEAK TO YOU THAT DAY?
13 A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
14 Q. WHEN MR. SIMPSON CAME INTO THE STORE TO
15 PURCHASE A KNIFE, EITHER THE FIRST OR THE SECOND TIME THAT
16 HE CAME INTO THE STORE, WAS HE WITH ANYONE?
17 A. NO, HE CAME BY HIMSELF.
18 BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WITH HIM,
19 BUT HE JUST WALKED IN ALONE.
20 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WITH
21 HIM, ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE --
22 A. WELL, WITH THE CREW, YOU KNOW, OTHER ACTORS OR
23 WHATEVER.
24 Q. SO OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE FILM CREW CAME IN?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. WAS THAT "YES"?
27 A. YES.
28 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ALL THE QUESTIONS WE
206
1 HAVE.
2 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
3 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
4
5 (SHORT PAUSE.)
6
7 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ALL THE QUESTIONS.
8 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
9 MR. CAMACHO, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY
10 TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
11 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
12 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
13 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
14 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
15 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
16 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
17 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
18 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
19 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
20 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
21 YOU.
22 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
23 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
24 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
25 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
26 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
27
28 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
207
1 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
2
3 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS FOR
4 10 MINUTES.
5 THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
6 DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
7 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONITION.
8
9 (MORNING RECESS TAKEN.)
10 -O0O-
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
208
1 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
2 MADAME SECRETARY?
3 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
4 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
5 NOW PRESENT.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
7 YOU MAY PROCEED.
8 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
9 PEOPLE CALL KAREN CRAWFORD.
10 THE FOREPERSON: KAREN CRAWFORD?
11 THE WITNESS: YES.
12 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
13 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
14 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
15 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
16 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
17 THE WITNESS: YES.
18 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
19 MISS CRAWFORD, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
20 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
21 THE WITNESS: KAREN LEE CRAWFORD.
22 KAREN, K-A-R-E-N, LEE, L-E-E, CRAWFORD,
23 C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D.
24 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
25 IF YOU COULD RAISE YOUR VOICE JUST SO THE
26 GENTLEMEN IN THE TWO FAR CORNERS OF THE HEARING ROOM WILL
27 BE ABLE TO HEAR YOU.
28 YOU MAY PROCEED.
209
1 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
2
3 KAREN LEE CRAWFORD,
4 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
5 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
6
7 E X A M I N A T I O N
8 BY MS. CLARK:
9 Q. MISS CRAWFORD, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL THE JURY
10 WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING.
11 A. I WORK AT MEZZALUNA. I'M THE BAR MANAGER.
12 I BARTEND THREE NIGHTS A WEEK AND I MANAGE ON
13 SUNDAYS.
14 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO EMPLOYED?
15 A. I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A YEAR.
16 Q. WERE YOU EMPLOYED IN THAT CAPACITY ON THE NIGHT
17 OF JUNE 12, 1994?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. AND WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT WORK?
20 A. I GOT INTO WORK AT 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
21 Q. NOW, YOU WERE MANAGING ON THAT NIGHT, WERE YOU
22 NOT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. THAT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS A SUNDAY?
25 A. IT WAS A SUNDAY, YES.
26 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING A PERSON NAMED NICOLE
27 SIMPSON COME TO YOUR RESTAURANT THAT NIGHT?
28 A. SHE DID.
210
1 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN HER THERE BEFORE?
2 A. I HAD SEEN HER THERE BEFORE.
3 Q. AND HAD YOU SPOKEN TO HER ON PRIOR OCCASIONS
4 WHEN SHE CAME TO THE RESTAURANT?
5 A. SORRY?
6 YES, JUST TO SAY, "HELLO. HOW ARE YOU?"
7 I NEVER SPOKE TO HER OTHER THAN JUST NICETIES,
8 GREETINGS.
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL ABOUT WHAT TIME SHE GOT THERE?
10 A. AROUND 6:30, I WOULD SAY.
11 I'M NOT POSITIVE.
12 Q. WAS SHE ALONE?
13 A. NO. SHE CAME WITH A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE.
14 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY?
15 A. THERE WERE TEN OF THEM.
16 THE RESERVATION SAID, "TEN PEOPLE," AND THERE
17 WERE TEN THERE.
18 Q. DID THAT PARTY INCLUDE ADULTS AND CHILDREN?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHERE DID THEY SIT IN THE RESTAURANT?
21 A. SINCE THERE WAS A LARGE PARTY OF THEM, WE HAD
22 THEM SIT IN THE FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT WHERE WE HAD A LONG
23 TABLE SET UP FOR THEM.
24 THEY WERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BAR, THE BAR
25 AREA.
26 Q. WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
27 RONALD GOLDMAN?
28 A. YES.
211
1 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW HIM?
2 A. I KNEW HIM THROUGH WORK. HE HAD WORKED THERE
3 FOR A FEW MONTHS AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY. I WORKED WITH
4 HIM.
5 I WASN'T FRIENDS WITH HIM OUTSIDE OF WORK,
6 ALTHOUGH I WOULD CONSIDER HIM TO BE MY FRIEND.
7 Q. IN WHAT CAPACITY DID HE WORK THERE?
8 A. HE WAS A WAITER.
9 Q. DID HE WAIT ON NICOLE SIMPSON'S PARTY THAT
10 NIGHT?
11 A. NO, NOT THAT NIGHT.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THE PARTY NICOLE SIMPSON
13 WAS WITH LEAVE THE RESTAURANT?
14 A. I SAW THEM WALKING OUT THE DOOR.
15 I CAN'T BE POSITIVE WHAT TIME THEY LEFT, BUT I
16 DO REMEMBER SEEING THEM LEAVING.
17 I THINK, YOU KNOW, I TOLD THEM TO HAVE A NICE
18 EVENING.
19 Q. DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME THAT WAS?
20 A. IT WAS AROUND 8:30 OR 9.
21 I'M NOT POSITIVE.
22 Q. NICOLE LEFT WITH THEM?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL WHAT NICOLE WAS WEARING
25 THAT NIGHT?
26 A. YES.
27 SHE WAS WEARING A BLACK HALTER DRESS.
28 Q. ARE YOU SURE?
212
1 A. IT WAS ABOVE THE KNEE, YEAH.
2 IT WAS A CASUAL DRESS.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SAY -- WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE
4 LENGTH AS MID-THIGH?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. SHOWING YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE PREVIOUSLY
7 BEEN MARKED AS 24 AND 25.
8 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PEOPLE
9 DEPICTED IN THEM.
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHO ARE THEY.
12 A. THAT'S RON, NICOLE --
13 Q. EXHIBIT 24 IS RON?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND EXHIBIT 25 IS NICOLE?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOW AFTER NICOLE AND HER PARTY LEFT AT
18 APPROXIMATELY 9:00 O'CLOCK P.M., DID YOU RECEIVE A PHONE
19 CALL?
20 A. I DID. I RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM A WOMAN --
21 Q. DON'T TELL ME ANYTHING SHE SAID. THAT'S
22 HEARSAY.
23 A. OKAY.
24 Q. THE VOICE OF THE WOMAN THAT YOU HEARD ON THE
25 PHONE, DID YOU RECOGNIZE THAT VOICE AS BELONGING TO SOMEONE
26 YOU HAD SPOKEN TO THAT EVENING?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AND WHO WAS THAT?
213
1 A. IT WAS THE OLDER WOMAN IN THE PARTY.
2 Q. WITH NICOLE SIMPSON?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HER?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AFTER YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH HER, AT
7 SOME POINT IN THAT CONVERSATION DID YOU LEAVE THE PHONE?
8 A. YES, I DID.
9 Q. WHEN YOU DID SO, DID YOU HANG IT UP OR PUT IT
10 ON HOLD?
11 A. I PUT HER ON HOLD.
12 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
13 A. I WENT LOOKING FOR A PAIR OF GLASSES SHE SAID
14 SHE HAD LOST.
15 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO AND DO THAT?
16 A. I LOOKED AROUND WHERE THEY HAD SAT, I ASKED THE
17 BUS BOYS IF THEY HAD FOUND ANY GLASSES, AND WE DIDN'T FIND
18 THEM IN THE RESTAURANT. THE BUS BOYS HADN'T SEEN THEM.
19 I KNEW WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN OUT OF THEIR CAR.
20 I HAD NOTICED WHEN THEY GOT OUT BECAUSE THERE WAS A LARGE
21 GROUP OF THEM. SO I WENT OUTSIDE TO WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN
22 OUT AND I FOUND THE GLASSES.
23 Q. WHERE DID YOU FIND THEM?
24 A. THEY WERE A FEW INCHES AWAY FROM THE GUTTER.
25 THEY WERE ON THE BLACKTOP, NOT ACTUALLY IN THE
26 GUTTER.
27 I FOUND THEM RIGHT THERE WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN
28 OUT.
214
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU FOUND THEM?
2 A. THEY WERE MUDDY. I WIPED THE MUD OFF OF THEM.
3 I TOLD HER THAT I HAD FOUND THE GLASSES AND I
4 ASKED HER IF SHE WOULD BE PICKING THEM UP THAT NIGHT.
5 Q. DID YOU THEN INDICATE THAT YOU WOULD DO
6 SOMETHING WITH THE GLASSES?
7 A. I DID.
8 SHE TOLD ME SHE COULDN'T PICK THE GLASSES UP.
9 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT SHE SAID.
10 A. I'M SORRY.
11 MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD WHAT
12 THE WITNESS HAS JUST PURPORTED THAT PERSON AS SAYING.
13 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
14 I PUT THEM IN AN ENVELOPE AND I WROTE NICOLE
15 SIMPSON'S NAME ON THE ENVELOPE AND I ALSO WROTE
16 "PRESCRIPTION GLASSES" UNDER HER NAME ON THE ENVELOPE.
17 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THAT
18 ENVELOPE THEN?
19 A. I SET IT ON THE BAR, BEHIND THE BAR.
20 Q. AND THE GLASSES WERE INSIDE THE ENVELOPE?
21 A. YES.
22 I PUT THEM IN THE ENVELOPE AND I SEALED THE
23 ENVELOPE.
24 Q. YOU SEALED IT?
25 A. YES.
26 IT WAS A LITTLE BULKY, AND I REMEMBER KIND OF
27 PUSHING THE ENVELOPE DOWN TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS CLOSING,
28 BECAUSE IT WAS KIND OF POPPING OPEN.
215
1 SO I KNOW I SEALED IT.
2 Q. DID YOU GET ANOTHER PHONE CALL AFTER THAT?
3 A. YEAH.
4 ABOUT 5 MINUTES LATER, THERE WAS ANOTHER PHONE
5 CALL.
6 Q. DID YOU SPEAK TO THIS PERSON ON THE PHONE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE THE VOICE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHOSE VOICE WAS IT?
11 A. IT WAS NICOLE'S.
12 Q. WHAT TIME WAS THAT, APPROXIMATELY?
13 A. I WOULD SAY IT WAS BETWEEN 9:30 AND 9:45.
14 Q. YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH NICOLE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. AND DID NICOLE ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING?
17 A. SHE --
18 Q. "YES" OR "NO."
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BASED ON WHAT SHE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?
21 A. I ASKED RON TO COME TO THE PHONE.
22 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "RON," YOU MEAN RON GOLDMAN?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. THE PERSON YOU IDENTIFIED IN PEOPLE'S 24?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DID RON TAKE THE PHONE?
27 A. HE DID.
28 Q. DID HE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH NICOLE?
216
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AFTER HE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH HER, WHAT
3 DID HE DO?
4 A. I GAVE HIM THE GLASSES AND HE LEFT SHORTLY
5 AFTER.
6 Q. WHEN HE LEFT, WAS HE WEARING A WAITER'S
7 UNIFORM?
8 A. I BELIEVE HE WAS, BLACK PANTS AND A WHITE SHIRT
9 AND A T-SHIRT UNDERNEATH.
10 Q. AND A VEST? DID HE WEAR A VEST?
11 A. WELL, I DON'T RECALL HIM WEARING THE VEST AT
12 THAT TIME, BUT HE DID HAVE A VEST WHILE HE WAS WORKING,
13 DEFINITELY.
14 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHERE RON LIVED?
15 A. I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE HE LIVED.
16 I KNOW HE LIVED VERY CLOSE BY.
17 Q. TO THE RESTAURANT?
18 A. UH-HUH.
19 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH.
22 MS. CLARK: MADAME FOREMAN, I'M GOING TO ASK THAT THE
23 NEXT SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 26.
24 IT IS A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS LABELED -A
25 THROUGH -F.
26 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
27 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 26.)
28 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED
217
1 AS PEOPLE'S 26.
2 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE IN PHOTOGRAPH
3 -F, WHAT IS DEPICTED THERE?
4 A. YEAH, THAT'S THE ENVELOPE.
5 Q. AND IT'S SEALED -- IT'S AT LEAST NOW PARTIALLY
6 SEALED IN PHOTOGRAPH -F AS YOU SEALED IT?
7 A. RIGHT.
8 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THAT'S THE ENVELOPE," YOU ARE
9 REFERRING TO --
10 A. YES.
11 Q. -- THAT'S THE ENVELOPE INTO WHICH YOU PLACED
12 THE GLASSES AND MARKED "NICOLE SIMPSON, PRESCRIPTION
13 GLASSES"?
14 A. YES.
15 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
16 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
17 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
18 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
19 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
20
21 (SHORT PAUSE.)
22
23 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
24 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURY?
25
26 (SHORT PAUSE.)
27
28 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
218
1 MISS CRAWFORD, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
2 CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
3 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
4 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
5 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
6 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
7 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
8 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
9 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
10 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
11 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
12 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
13 YOU.
14 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
15 THE WITNESS: YES.
16 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
17 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
18 THE WITNESS: THANKS.
19
20 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
21 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
22
23 MS. CLARK: THE NEXT WITNESS THAT THE PEOPLE INTEND
24 TO CALL IS A NEW ADDITION TO THE WITNESS LIST.
25 I'M NOT CERTAIN OF THE SPELLING OF HIS LAST
26 NAME, SO I COULD SIMPLY BE PERMITTED TO CALL HIM BY HIS
27 FIRST NAME AND HAVE HIM SPELL IT FOR US ALL AT THE SAME
28 TIME.
219
1 KEITH.
2 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
3 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
4 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
5 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
6 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
7 THE WITNESS: YES.
8 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
9 PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL NAME, SPEAKING
10 DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
11 THE WITNESS: KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH.
12 K-E-I-T-H D-O-U-G-L-A-S Z-L-O-M-S-O-W-I-T-C-H.
13 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
14 YOU MAY PROCEED.
15
16 KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH,
17 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
18 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 E X A M I N A T I O N
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q. SIR, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED AT ANY TIME WITH A
23 WOMAN BY THE NAME OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
24 A. YES, I WAS.
25 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
26 A. I MET NICOLE IN JANUARY OF 1992 AND WAS
27 ACQUAINTED WITH HER UP UNTIL THE TIME OF HER DEATH.
28 Q. HOW IS IT THAT YOU CAME TO MEET HER?
220
1 A. I MET NICOLE IN ASPEN, COLORADO. SHE HAD BEEN
2 IN ONE OF THE RESTAURANTS THAT I RUN AND I MET HER THE NEXT
3 DAY AFTER SHE HAD A MEAL IN MY -- ONE OF MY RESTAURANTS.
4 SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT BEING IN THE RESTAURANT
5 THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND I OVERHEARD HER CONVERSATION AND
6 STARTED UP A CONVERSATION WITH HER ABOUT THE RESTAURANT SHE
7 HAD BEEN IN, BEING THAT IT WAS ONE OF MINE.
8 Q. AND WHAT RESTAURANT WAS THAT?
9 A. MEZZALUNA.
10 Q. DID YOU OWN IT, SIR?
11 A. NO.
12 MY TITLE WAS OFFICIALLY DIRECTOR OF
13 OPERATIONS.
14 I RAN THE MEZZALUNA IN ASPEN, COLORADO AS WELL
15 AS THE TWO OUT HERE IN CALIFORNIA.
16 Q. AFTER THAT POINT, AFTER THAT CONVERSATION YOU
17 HAD WITH HER IN ASPEN, DID YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF
18 RELATIONSHIP WITH HER?
19 A. YES, I DID.
20 Q. WAS IT ROMANTIC IN NATURE?
21 A. IT CAME TO BE, YES.
22 Q. AND DID YOU VISIT HER WHERE SHE WAS LIVING IN
23 1992?
24 A. YES, I DID.
25 Q. WHERE WAS THAT?
26 A. ON 325 GRETNA GREEN IN BRENTWOOD, CALIFORNIA.
27 Q. AT THAT TIME, WAS SHE MARRIED?
28 A. SHE WAS -- I BELIEVE SHE WAS -- THE DIVORCE WAS
221
1 PENDING, THE DIVORCE WAS IN THE PROCESS, BUT SHE WAS
2 LEGALLY SEPARATED AND LIVING IN HER OWN RESIDENCE.
3 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHO SHE WAS MARRIED TO?
4 A. I FOUND OUT; YES, I DID.
5 Q. DID YOU EVER MEET THAT PERSON?
6 A. ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, YES.
7 Q. WHO WAS THAT?
8 A. MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
9 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS
10 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 25.
11 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN
12 THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHO IS THAT?
15 A. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
16 Q. SHOWING YOU THE PERSON SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 23.
17 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?
18 A. YES, I DO.
19 Q. WHO IS THAT?
20 A. MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
21 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU BEGAN VISITING HER, WAS THAT IN
22 JANUARY OF '92 AS WELL?
23 A. NO, IT WAS NOT.
24 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
25 A. I CAME TO CALIFORNIA IN APRIL OF '92.
26 Q. DID YOU BEGIN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP AT THAT
27 TIME?
28 A. YES. IT CAME TO BE ONE.
222
1 Q. WHEN DID IT COME TO BE ONE?
2 A. I ARRIVED IN CALIFORNIA PROBABLY LATE MARCH,
3 EARLY APRIL OF '92, AND BEING THAT I HAD MET HER IN ASPEN,
4 WE IMMEDIATELY, YOU KNOW, CONTACTED EACH OTHER -- I
5 CONTACTED HER -- AND WE STARTED SEEING EACH OTHER AT THAT
6 LEVEL.
7 IT BECAME ROMANTIC APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS FROM
8 THAT POINT.
9 Q. DID YOU DATE HER FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?
10 A. YES, I DID.
11 Q. DID YOU EVER LIVE TOGETHER?
12 A. I DATED HER AND STAYED AT THE HOUSE FREQUENTLY,
13 AND AT A POINT IN THE FUTURE, I DID MOVE INTO THE HOUSE FOR
14 A PERIOD OF TIME. BUT NOT IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP AT
15 THAT POINT.
16 AT THAT POINT, WE WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS AND
17 SHE INVITED ME TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE.
18 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH HER
19 ROMANTICALLY?
20 A. FOR A PERIOD OF APPROXIMATELY 3 TO 4 WEEKS AND
21 THEN -- A MONTH.
22 Q. SO THAT WAS APRIL TO MAY?
23 A. EXACTLY.
24 Q. AFTER THAT POINT, YOU REMAINED FRIENDS?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DID YOU GO OUT TOGETHER?
27 A. YES, WE DID.
28 Q. FREQUENTLY?
223
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND YOU MAINTAINED THAT FRIENDSHIP UP UNTIL --
3 A. THE LAST CONTACT I HAD WITH NICOLE WAS
4 APPROXIMATELY 5 MONTHS PRIOR TO HER DEATH.
5 Q. WAS THAT A FRIENDLY CONTACT?
6 A. YES, IT WAS.
7 THERE WERE SOME CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO OUR
8 NOT KEEPING IN CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER.
9 Q. WE WILL GET BACK TO THAT.
10 A. OKAY.
11 Q. DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE ROMANTICALLY
12 INVOLVED WITH HER, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH O.J.
13 SIMPSON?
14 A. YES, I DID.
15 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THE NATURE OF THAT
16 CONTACT.
17 A. THERE WERE SEVERAL INCIDENTS, THE FIRST BEING
18 WHEN I HAD JUST ARRIVED IN CALIFORNIA.
19 I HAD CALLED NICOLE -- SHE HAD GIVEN ME HER
20 NUMBER WHEN WE HAD MET IN ASPEN, AND SHE ASKED ME TO CALL
21 WHEN I GOT TO TOWN. SHE EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN SEEING ME
22 WHEN I GOT IN TOWN. SO I CALLED HER.
23 APPROXIMATELY 2 OR 3 NIGHTS AFTER I GOT IN
24 TOWN, I WAS WORKING AT ONE OF MY RESTAURANTS, THE MEZZALUNA
25 IN BEVERLY HILLS, SO I INVITED HER DOWN TO I COULD SEE HER
26 THAT NIGHT.
27 SHE SAID SHE WOULD LOVE TO, INVITED A COUPLE OF
28 FRIENDS TO GO ALONG, ASKED IF SHE COULD GET A TABLE BECAUSE
224
1 IT WAS ONE OF THE BUSIER NIGHTS.
2 I SAID, "OF COURSE."
3 SHE CAME DOWN TO THE RESTAURANT. WE WERE
4 HAVING A VERY GOOD NIGHT. THE RESTAURANT WAS EXTREMELY
5 BUSY AT THE TIME.
6 AND MR. SIMPSON WALKED INTO THE RESTAURANT,
7 PULLED UP IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT IN HIS CAR TO VALET
8 PARKING, WHICH IS VERY VISIBLE.
9 HE WALKED INTO THE RESTAURANT AND APPROACHED
10 OUR TABLE.
11 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
12 A. HE LEANED OVER OUR TABLE -- THERE WERE
13 APPROXIMATELY SIX OR EIGHT PEOPLE SITTING AT THE TABLE,
14 FRIENDS OF HERS, MYSELF AND ONE OF MY FRIENDS WHO WAS
15 WORKING AT THE RESTAURANT AT THE TIME WHO I WAS INTRODUCING
16 TO HER FRIENDS.
17 HE LEANED OVER OUR TABLE, RESTED HIS HANDS ON
18 THE TABLE AND SORT OF STARED AT MYSELF AND THE OTHER MALE
19 INDIVIDUAL AT THE TABLE AND INTRODUCED HIMSELF AS MR. O.J.
20 SIMPSON AND REPLIED, "I'M O.J. SIMPSON AND SHE'S STILL MY
21 WIFE."
22 Q. AND WAS HE LOOKING AT YOU WHEN HE SAID THAT?
23 A. YES, HE WAS.
24 Q. AND HE HAD HIS HANDS PLACED ON THE TABLE TOP?
25 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF BOTH HANDS WERE ON THE TABLE
26 TOP OR ONE ON ACTUALLY HER CHAIR AND THE OTHER ON THE
27 TABLE, BUT QUITE IMPOSINGLY LEANING OVER THE TABLE.
28 Q. LEANING OVER THE ENTIRE TABLE?
225
1 A. LEANING OVER THE END OF THE TABLE, AS IF TO
2 ANNOUNCE TO EVERYBODY.
3 Q. DID HE SAY IT IN A SERIOUS TONE OF VOICE?
4 A. YES, HE DID.
5 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIS TONE OF VOICE?
6 A. SERIOUS, IF NOT SCARY.
7 JUST DEEP, THREATENING TO THE POINT OF -- YES,
8 WE WERE VERY INTIMIDATED.
9 I WAS FOR SURE INTIMIDATED.
10 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
11 A. I -- I WAS SHOCKED A LITTLE BIT. I SIMPLY
12 LEANED BACK. I WAS SCARED. I WAS AFRAID OF A POSSIBLE
13 CONFRONTATION, OBVIOUSLY.
14 NICOLE MADE A COMMENT TO HIM. I DON'T RECALL
15 EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS. THEY SORT OF HAD A SMALL CONVERSATION
16 AND HE LEFT THE RESTAURANT AND SHE FOLLOWED HIM OUT OF THE
17 RESTAURANT.
18 THEN I GOT UP FROM THE TABLE AND WENT BACK TO
19 WORK.
20 I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING AND HANGING OUT
21 AT THE TABLE AT THE SAME TIME. I WAS ENTERTAINING THEM AT
22 THE TABLE AS WELL AS WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT AT THE SAME
23 TIME.
24 SO I GOT UP. I WAS OBVIOUSLY SHAKEN A LITTLE
25 BIT BY THE ORDEAL.
26 Q. IN WHAT MANNER DID HE LEAVE THE RESTAURANT?
27 A. HE LEFT PRETTY RAPIDLY OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND
28 NICOLE FOLLOWED HIM OUT FRONT.
226
1 Q. DID SHE RUN?
2 A. SHE DIDN'T RUN.
3 SHE WENT OUTSIDE TO OBVIOUSLY HAVE A
4 CONVERSATION WITH HIM.
5 Q. AND --
6 A. AND THEY HAD A CONVERSATION OUT FRONT.
7 Q. DID YOU SEE THEM?
8 A. I SAW THEM TALKING TOGETHER AT HIS CAR, YES.
9 Q. WHAT KIND OF -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE THEIR DEMEANOR
10 DURING THAT CONVERSATION.
11 A. IT APPEARED THAT THEY WERE HAVING A DISCUSSION
12 INVOLVING, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE RESTAURANT.
13 I DID NOT HEAR THE DISCUSSION, BUT THEY WERE
14 GOING -- YOU KNOW, HE WAS GESTURING WITH HIS HANDS AND SHE
15 WAS TALKING BACK TO HIM -- I MEAN, EXPLAINING TO HIM OR
16 SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
17 I'M NOT SURE.
18 Q. WHEN YOU MENTIONED HER, YOU SEEMED TO KIND OF
19 HOLD YOUR HANDS OUT IN A PLAINTIVE MANNER AND LOOK UP.
20 WAS SHE ACTING LIKE THAT, LIKE SHE WAS TRYING
21 TO APPEASE HIM?
22 A. IN MY MIND, I BELIEVE SO, YES.
23 Q. THAT'S THE WAY IT APPEARED?
24 A. YES, TO ME.
25 Q. SHE WAS NOT YELLING?
26 A. NO, NOT AT ALL.
27 Q. WAS HE?
28 A. WAS HE YELLING?
227
1 Q. WAS HE YELLING?
2 A. IT WOULD BE HARD FOR ME TO HAVE HEARD THAT
3 BEING INSIDE THE RESTAURANT.
4 THE GLASS WINDOWS AND THE AMOUNT OF NOISE,
5 ESPECIALLY THAT EVENING AT THE RESTAURANT BEING VERY BUSY,
6 IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO HEAR ANY TONES FROM
7 OUTSIDE.
8 Q. YOU COULDN'T HEAR VOICES?
9 A. NO, I COULD NOT HEAR VOICES.
10 Q. THE MANNER IN WHICH HE WAS GESTURING, DESCRIBE
11 HOW HE WAS GESTURING FOR US.
12 A. HE WAS SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, AS HE WAS TALKING, HE
13 WAS GESTURING WITH HIS HANDS (INDICATING).
14 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS HELD HIS
15 TWO HANDS, PALMS INWARD IN FRONT OF HIM, TO INDICATE THE
16 GESTURING DONE BY MR. SIMPSON.
17 Q. COULD YOU CHARACTERIZE HIS DEMEANOR FOR US.
18 COULD YOU DESCRIBE IT ANY FURTHER?
19 A. HIS DEMEANOR OUTSIDE OF THE RESTAURANT?
20 Q. YES.
21 A. IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO DO THAT BEING
22 THAT I WAS FOCUSING ON RUNNING THE RESTAURANT AS WELL AT
23 THE TIME.
24 I WAS AWARE OF THEIR CONVERSATION OUT FRONT,
25 BUT I THINK IN MY OWN MIND I WANTED TO AVOID BEING SEEN BY
26 HIM OR BEING SEEN AS PAYING ATTENTION TO IT.
27 I WAS TRYING TO AVOID ANY POSSIBLE
28 CONFRONTATION, OBVIOUSLY.
228
1 Q. DID SHE COME BACK IN THE RESTAURANT AFTER THAT?
2 A. YES, SHE DID.
3 Q. HOW LONG AFTER THAT, AFTER THEY LEFT?
4 AFTER THEY WERE OUTSIDE, HOW LONG WAS IT BEFORE
5 SHE CAME BACK IN?
6 A. I WOULD SAY OR GUESS 10 MINUTES.
7 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE HER APPEARANCE OR DEMEANOR
8 WHEN SHE RETURNED.
9 A. SHE WAS VISIBLY SHAKEN.
10 SHE SAT BACK DOWN AT THE TABLE AND I CAN'T
11 REMEMBER HER EXACT WORDS, BUT THEY WERE TO THE EFFECT OF,
12 "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS GOING ON."
13 Q. SHE SEEMED UPSET?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WAS SHE CRYING?
16 A. I DON'T RECALL IF SHE WAS ACTUALLY CRYING, BUT
17 SHE -- SHE WAS SHAKEN.
18 Q. CLOSE TO IT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND WHEN DID THIS OCCUR?
21 A. THIS OCCURRED -- IT WAS EITHER THE VERY END OF
22 MARCH OR THE VERY END OF APRIL OF 1992 AT THE MEZZALUNA IN
23 BEVERLY HILLS.
24 Q. WERE THERE ANY OTHER INCIDENTS THAT YOU RECALL
25 OBSERVING HOSTILITIES BETWEEN MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE
26 SIMPSON?
27 A. THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHER ENCOUNTERS BETWEEN
28 MR. AND MRS. SIMPSON AND MYSELF INCLUDED, IF YOU WOULD LIKE
229
1 ME TO STATE THOSE.
2 Q. YES.
3 WHEN YOU DO SO, LET'S GO TO THE VERY NEXT ONE
4 IN TIME.
5 TELL US WHEN THAT WAS.
6 A. I BELIEVE THE VERY NEXT -- I'M SORRY.
7 SHALL I WAIT?
8 Q. YES.
9 MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE?
10
11 (SHORT PAUSE.)
12
13 Q. BY MS. CLARK: GO AHEAD.
14 A. I BELIEVE THE VERY NEXT TIME WAS ONE EVENING ME
15 AND NICOLE HAD MADE DINNER PLANS WITH SEVERAL OTHER GUESTS
16 IN ADVANCE TO GO TO A NEW RESTAURANT THAT HAD OPENED IN
17 LOS ANGELES.
18 BEING THAT I WAS IN THE RESTAURANT BUSINESS, WE
19 LIKED TO GO OUT AND TRY DIFFERENT RESTAURANTS, SO WE
20 DECIDED WE WERE GOING TO GO TO A RESTAURANT CALLED TRYST
21 THAT HAD JUST OPENED.
22 WE HAD MADE RESERVATIONS -- I REMEMBER IT WAS
23 DIFFICULT TO GET THE RESERVATIONS. WE MADE THE
24 RESERVATIONS IN ADVANCE WITH SEVERAL OTHER FRIENDS OF
25 NICOLES AND WE SHOWED UP FOR OUR RESERVATION THAT NIGHT FOR
26 DINNER. WE HAD TO WAIT AN HOUR, HOUR-AND-A-HALF FOR A
27 TABLE, SO WE WERE IN THE BAR FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.
28 WHEN WE WERE FINALLY SET, WITHIN A MINUTE OF
230
1 THE TIME WE ACTUALLY WERE SET AT THE TABLE, MR. SIMPSON
2 WALKED INTO THE RESTAURANT, WALKED DIRECTLY BY OUR TABLE,
3 LOOKED AT EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE AS HE WALKED BY, MADE IT
4 VERY CLEAR THAT HIS PRESENCE WAS THERE, WALKED OVER TO A
5 TABLE APPROXIMATELY 10 FEET AWAY FROM OURS, PULLED THE
6 CHAIR SIDEWAYS, AS IF TO FACE OUR TABLE DIRECTLY, SAT DOWN
7 AND JUST STARED AT OUR TABLE.
8 THIS ACTUALLY WAS SO UNCOMFORTABLE THAT ONE OF
9 THE GUESTS AT OUR PARTY FELT SO SHAKEN SHE GOT UP AND LEFT
10 THE RESTAURANT.
11 SHE SAID, "I JUST CAN'T HANDLE THIS."
12 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT SHE SAID.
13 A. OH, SORRY.
14 SHE GOT UP AND LEFT THE RESTAURANT.
15 Q. HOW LONG AFTER MR. SIMPSON SAT DOWN NEXT TO
16 YOUR TABLE DID SHE DO THAT?
17 A. WITHIN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. SHE WAS SHAKEN BY
18 IT.
19 SO NICOLE ASKED ME, SHE SAID, "I" -- "DO YOU
20 WANT TO LEAVE THE RESTAURANT? THIS IS VERY
21 UNCOMFORTABLE."
22 Q. TRY NOT TO TELL ME WHAT SHE SAID.
23 BUT SHE ASKED YOU IF YOU WANTED TO LEAVE THE
24 RESTAURANT, "CAN WE LEAVE?"
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
27 A. I SAID, "NO."
28 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT YOU SAID.
231
1 YOU STAYED?
2 A. WE DECIDED TO STAY; YES, WE DID.
3 Q. AND FOR HOW LONG -- WHEN MR. SIMPSON WAS
4 SITTING THERE, WAS HE JUST LOOKING, SITTING AND LOOKING?
5 A. FOR THE FIRST 8 OR 10 MINUTES, YES.
6 Q. NONSTOP?
7 A. NONSTOP; STARING.
8 Q. HOW FAR AWAY FROM YOUR TABLE WAS HE SEATED AT
9 THE TIME?
10 A. 10 FEET OR SO.
11 Q. SO YOU STAYED?
12 A. YES, WE DID STAY.
13 Q. DID YOU HAVE DINNER?
14 A. YES, WE DID.
15 Q. DID MR. SIMPSON MAKE ANY FURTHER CONTACT WITH
16 YOU?
17 A. HE CAME OVER TO THE TABLE AT ONE POINT, SAT
18 DOWN IN THE BOOTH.
19 Q. NEXT TO --
20 A. NEXT TO NICOLE.
21 AND I RECALL HIM THROWING HIS ARM UP ON THE
22 BOOTH AND KIND OF JUST LEANING BACK IN A CASUAL SENSE.
23 AND, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I DON'T RECALL
24 EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID AT THAT POINT. I WAS -- I WAS
25 SCARED. I WAS SHAKEN.
26 Q. WHAT HAPPENED THEN?
27 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF I GOT UP AND LEFT THE TABLE
28 OR IF I TURNED MY ATTENTION TO ANOTHER -- SOMETHING ELSE
232
1 THAT WAS GOING ON BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
2 BUT THEY HAD A SMALL CONVERSATION.
3 Q. NICOLE AND MR. SIMPSON?
4 A. NICOLE AND MR. SIMPSON DID.
5 AND WE LEFT. ME AND NICOLE LEFT THE TABLE.
6 NICOLE AND I LEFT THE RESTAURANT.
7 Q. DID MR. SIMPSON STAY BEHIND?
8 A. YES, HE DID.
9 Q. WAS HE ALONE?
10 A. HE WAS ALONE WHEN HE ENTERED, BUT HE JOINED A
11 GROUP OF PEOPLE.
12 HE WALKED TO THEIR TABLE --
13 Q. WHEN YOU LEFT?
14 A. -- AND SPECIFICALLY GRABBED A CHAIR FROM
15 ANOTHER TABLE. THIS IS WHEN HE FIRST ENTERED THE
16 RESTAURANT.
17 HE ENTERED ALONE, WALKED TO THE TABLE THAT HE
18 ENDED UP SITTING AT, BUT HE DID HAVE TO GRAB A CHAIR FROM
19 ANOTHER TABLE TO SIT THERE.
20 Q. SO HE CAME INTO THE RESTAURANT, TOOK A CHAIR
21 FROM ANOTHER TABLE, SAT WITH WITH ANOTHER PARTY?
22 A. ANOTHER PARTY, YES.
23 Q. THEN GOT UP AND MOVED AWAY FROM THAT PARTY TO
24 SIT CLOSER TO WHERE YOU AND NICOLE WERE?
25 A. YES.
26 AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME, HE JOINED OUR TABLE --
27 NOT JOINED -- HE WALKED OVER TO OUR TABLE, JUST SAT DOWN
28 NEXT TO NICOLE AND THEN THERE WAS, I BELIEVE, A BRIEF
233
1 CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEM, AND ME AND NICOLE LEFT THE
2 RESTAURANT.
3 Q. SO WHEN HE FIRST CAME IN, HE WENT AND SAT DOWN
4 WITH THAT PARTY OF PEOPLE?
5 A. YES, HE DID.
6 Q. WAS IT FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT THAT HE WAS
7 WATCHING YOU AND NICOLE?
8 A. THAT HE WAS STARING AT US?
9 YES, HE WAS.
10 Q. DID HE HAVE TO TURN AROUND OR MAKE SOME SPECIAL
11 EFFORT TO BE ABLE TO SEE YOU --
12 A. YES, HE DID.
13 Q. -- FROM WHERE HE WAS SEATED?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT EFFORT DID HE HAVE TO MAKE?
16 A. HE HAD TO TURN HIS CHAIR PHYSICALLY THE
17 OPPOSITE DIRECTION IN WHICH IT WOULD BE PLACED AT THE TABLE
18 IF HE WAS HAVING DINNER AT THE TABLE.
19 Q. 180 DEGREES FROM THE EATING POSITION?
20 A. PRECISELY.
21 Q. AND HE REMAINED IN THAT POSITION FOR HOW LONG?
22 A. I WOULD ESTIMATE 15, 20 MINUTES, WHILE THE TIME
23 THAT OUR MEAL WAS SERVED AND WE WERE ACTUALLY EATING
24 DINNER.
25 I BELIEVE IT WAS AFTER WE FINISHED OUR OWN
26 ENTRE WHEN HE APPROACHED OUR TABLE AND SAT DOWN, BECAUSE WE
27 HAD DECIDED AT THAT POINT TO LEAVE AND THE CHECK OBVIOUSLY
28 HAD BEEN PAID, OR WAS CLOSE TO BEING PAID, OR WE WOULDN'T
234
1 HAVE LEFT.
2 Q. HOW MANY FEET AWAY FROM YOUR TABLE WAS HE
3 SEATED AS HE SAT IN THAT POSITION WITH THE CHAIR TURNED
4 AROUND?
5 A. APPROXIMATELY 10.
6 Q. 10 FEET?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID YOU OR ANYONE AT YOUR TABLE GESTURE FOR HIM
9 TO COME OVER?
10 A. NO, NOT AT ALL.
11 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE IN YOUR PARTY?
12 A. ABOUT SIX, INITIALLY.
13 A COUPLE OF THEM LEFT WHEN MR. SIMPSON ENTERED
14 THE RESTAURANT.
15 Q. WHEN HE ENTERED THE RESTAURANT OR WHEN HE BEGAN
16 STARING AT YOUR TABLE?
17 A. WHEN HE ENTERED, HE WENT DIRECTLY TO THE OTHER
18 TABLE, TURNED THE CHAIR, SAT DOWN AND STARED AT US.
19 AT THAT POINT, PART OF OUR PARTY BECAME
20 UNCOMFORTABLE AND LEFT THE RESTAURANT.
21 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU AND NICOLE FINALLY LEFT THE
22 RESTAURANT, DID HE REMAIN THERE?
23 A. I BELIEVE HE DID, YES.
24 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM LEAVE?
25 A. I DID NOT SEE HIM LEAVE, NO.
26 Q. DID HE MAKE ANY REMARKS TO YOU?
27 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF THERE WERE ANY VERBAL REMARKS
28 MADE TO ME.
235
1 HE SORT OF GOT CLOSE TO ME, I MEAN, IN THE
2 EFFECT THAT HE MADE A POINT OF WHEN HE SAT DOWN OF LOOKING
3 DIRECTLY INTO MY EYES. FROM HIS VANTAGE POINT, HE WAS VERY
4 CLOSE, MAYBE 2 FEET AWAY.
5 AND AS HE SAT DOWN IN THE BOOTH AND PUT HIS ARM
6 UP ON THE BOOTH, I REMEMBER HIM LOOKING DIRECTLY INTO MY
7 EYES.
8 BUT I DON'T RECALL IF THERE WAS ANY
9 CONVERSATION, IF HE VERBALLY SAID ANYTHING TO ME.
10 Q. DID YOU OBSERVE NICOLE'S DEMEANOR THROUGHOUT
11 THESE EVENTS FROM THE TIME HE WALKED IN AND SEATED HIMSELF,
12 WATCHING YOUR TABLE, TO THE TIME YOU LEFT?
13 A. YES, I DID.
14 Q. CAN YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE HOW SHE APPEARED TO
15 YOU.
16 A. SHE WAS VERY, VERY NERVOUS, VERY UNCOMFORTABLE
17 AND SHAKEN.
18 SHE FELT VERY UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE RESTAURANT.
19 SHE DID NOT WANT TO STAY.
20 Q. THAT'S HOW SHE APPEARED TO YOU?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHEN WAS THIS?
23 WHEN DID THIS OCCUR?
24 A. THIS WAS ALSO IN EARLY APRIL OF 1992.
25 Q. WAS THERE ANOTHER INCIDENT?
26 A. YES, THERE WAS.
27 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT AND TELL US WHEN.
28 A. APPROXIMATELY A WEEK LATER, NICOLE AND I HAD
236
1 MADE PLANS TO GO TO THE IMPROV COMEDY SHOW, COMEDY CLUB,
2 WITH SOME FRIENDS OF NICOLE'S AND SEE A LOCAL COMMEDIAN WHO
3 WAS A FRIEND OF NICOLE'S AND, I BELIEVE, ALSO A FRIEND OF
4 MR. SIMPSON'S, WHO WAS PLAYING IN TOWN.
5 AND NICOLE ASKED ME IF I WOULD LIKE TO GO AND I
6 SAID, "I WOULD LOVE TO." SO WE MADE ARRANGEMENTS TO GET A
7 TABLE AT THE IMPROV THAT NIGHT.
8 WE WENT TO THE SHOW AND WE HAD A VERY GOOD TIME
9 AT THE SHOW.
10 WE LEFT THE SHOW TO GO DANCING AFTERWARD TO A
11 CLUB CALLED ROXBURY IN HOLLYWOOD.
12 AFTER ENTERING ROXBURY, BEING THERE
13 APPROXIMATELY A HALF-AN-HOUR, 45 MINUTES, NICOLE CAME UP TO
14 ME AND MADE A COMMENT, "O.J. IS HERE."
15 I WASN'T DANCING AT THE TIME. SHE WAS DANCING,
16 I BELIEVE, WITH A LADY FRIEND OF HERS. I WAS JUST SORT OF
17 HANGING OUT, SO I WASN'T REALLY OBSERVING THE CROWD.
18 Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO TRY TO TELL US NOT WHAT
19 NICOLE SAID.
20 I WILL ASK THE GRAND JURY TO DISREGARD THE
21 STATEMENT ATTRIBUTED TO NICOLE SIMPSON.
22 SHE CAME UP AND SAID SOMETHING TO YOU?
23 A. YES, SHE DID.
24 Q. AND AFTER SHE SAID WHAT SHE DID TO YOU, WHAT
25 DID YOU DO?
26 A. WE LEFT.
27 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYONE -- DID YOU SEE O.J. SIMPSON
28 THERE?
237
1 A. NO, I DID NOT.
2 Q. AFTER YOU LEFT, DID ANYTHING ELSE HAPPEN THAT
3 NIGHT?
4 A. WE WENT BACK TO NICOLE'S HOUSE.
5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
6 A. WE GOT TO THE HOUSE, WE LIT A FEW CANDLES, PUT
7 ON A LITTLE MUSIC, POURED A GLASS OF WINE AND WE SAT ON THE
8 COUCH IN THE DOWNSTAIRS LIVING ROOM OF THE HOUSE AND WE
9 BEGAN TO BECOME INTIMATE.
10 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
11 A. WE WERE TOGETHER FOR A FEW HOURS ON THE LIVING
12 ROOM COUCH.
13 AT SOME POINT IN TIME, A FEW HOURS LATER,
14 NICOLE OBVIOUSLY THOUGHT -- NICOLE THOUGHT IT WAS BEST THAT
15 I SHOULD GO HOME AND SHE SHOULD GO TO BED.
16 SO SHE DID AND I DID.
17 THE NEXT DAY I CAME BACK TO THE HOUSE, THE KIDS
18 WERE SWIMMING IN THE SWIMMING POOL, ME AND NICOLE WERE
19 SITTING ALONGSIDE THE SWIMMING POOL WATCHING THE CHILDREN.
20 SHE MADE A COMMENT THAT HER NECK WAS STIFF AND
21 THAT HER BACK WAS SORT OF STIFF.
22 MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME.
23 THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY.
24 I CAN'T SAY THAT.
25 MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THE GRAND JURY TO DISREGARD
26 THE STATEMENT ATTRIBUTED TO MISS SIMPSON.
27 Q. SHE SAID SOMETHING TO YOU?
28 A. YES, SHE DID.
238
1 Q. DID YOU MAKE SOME OBSERVATION OR DO SOMETHING
2 AS A RESULT OF THAT?
3 A. YES, I DID.
4 Q. WHAT WAS THAT?
5 A. I -- WE WENT INTO THE BEDROOM OFF OF THE
6 SWIMMING POOL, VERY CLOSE TO WHERE THE CHILDREN WERE AT IN
7 THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, WITH THE DOOR OPEN SO WE COULD SEE
8 THE CHILDREN SWIMMING, AND I BEGAN TO GIVE HER A NECK
9 MASSAGE.
10 Q. DID SHE REMAIN DRESSED?
11 A. YES, SHE DID.
12 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
13 I'M SORRY. DID --
14 A. SHE REMAINED DRESSED.
15 VERY SOON AFTER, MAYBE 5 MINUTES AFTER I BEGAN
16 GIVING NICOLE A MASSAGE, I LOOKED UP AND MR. SIMPSON CAME
17 IN THROUGH THE BACK DOOR WHICH WAS ADJOINING ADJACENT TO
18 THE POOL, CAME DIRECTLY IN THROUGH THE BACK DOOR RIGHT UP
19 ON TOP OF US, PHYSICALLY WITHIN 2 FEET, CAME RIGHT IN THE
20 BACK DOOR.
21 Q. HAD YOU SEEN HIM BEFORE HE APPEARED WITHIN
22 2 FEET OF YOU?
23 A. NO, I DID NOT.
24 Q. AND WERE YOU STANDING OVER NICOLE?
25 WAS SHE WAS LYING ON HER STOMACH AT THAT TIME?
26 A. I WAS SITTING ON HER BACK MASSAGING HER NECK.
27 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
28 A. I LOOKED UP. I WAS STARTLED.
239
1 NICOLE LOOKED UP AND WAS STARTLED AS WELL.
2 MR. SIMPSON MADE A COMMENT, SEVERAL COMMENTS,
3 ACTUALLY, STARTED SAYING TO US -- CAN I SAY WHAT
4 MR. SIMPSON SAID?
5 Q. YES, YOU CAN.
6 A. HE SAID, "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. I CAN'T BELIEVE
7 IT. LOOK WHAT YOU ARE DOING. LOOK WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
8 THE KIDS ARE RIGHT OUT HERE BY THE POOL. LOOK WHAT YOU
9 GUYS ARE DOING."
10 Q. WHAT WAS HIS TONE OF VOICE?
11 A. ANGRY.
12 HE THEN PROCEEDED TO SIT DOWN NEXT TO THE BED.
13 NICOLE MADE A COMMENT TO HIM. HE SAT DOWN NEXT
14 TO THE BED AND CONTINUED TO MAKE COMMENTS TOWARDS US.
15 HE SAID -- HE SAID, "I WATCHED YOU LAST NIGHT.
16 I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD DO THAT IN THE HOUSE. I WATCHED
17 YOU."
18 Q. IS THERE A WINDOW THAT SOMEONE COULD HAVE SEEN
19 YOU AND NICOLE THROUGH AS YOU WERE TOGETHER THE NIGHT
20 BEFORE?
21 A. YES, THERE IS.
22 THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO VANTAGE POINTS.
23 Q. AND WERE THE DRAPES PULLED CLOSED OR LEFT OPEN
24 THAT NIGHT, IF YOU RECALL?
25 A. I DON'T RECALL.
26 BUT I DID LOOK AT THIS POINT WHEN HE CONFRONTED
27 US AND SAID, "I WATCHED YOU, I WATCHED YOU," WHEN I WENT
28 DIRECTLY OUT OF THE BEDROOM, WE WERE INTO THE LIVING ROOM
240
1 AND I LOOKED AT THE DRAPES AND THEY WERE OPEN AND WITH A
2 SHEAR -- THERE ARE SEVERAL SYSTEMS TO THE DRAPES. THERE IS
3 A SHEER COATING, THEN A DRAPE SYSTEM, THEN A FULL CURTAIN,
4 LIKE A THREE-DRAPE SYSTEM.
5 Q. DID HE SAY ANYTHING ELSE?
6 A. THIS WENT ON FOR ABOUT 5 MINUTES. HE SAID
7 SEVERAL THINGS.
8 HE SAID, "I SAW EVERYTHING YOU DID."
9 HE MADE SEVERAL COMMENTS REFERRING TO WHAT HAD
10 HAPPENED THE NIGHT BEFORE.
11 HE SAID, "I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ALONE,
12 NICOLE."
13 I WAS HOLDING NICOLE'S HAND AND I DIDN'T WANT
14 TO LEAVE THE ROOM.
15 Q. WAS SHE SITTING UP BY THAT TIME?
16 A. WITHIN 3 OR 4 MINUTES, WE HAD UNCOMFORTABLY
17 MOVED.
18 I FELT EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE SITTING ON HER
19 BACK, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE ANY MOVES. I DIDN'T WANT
20 TO JUMP, RUN, DO ANYTHING TO THAT EFFECT.
21 SO I SLOWLY MOVED OFF HER BACK OVER THE COURSE
22 OF A COUPLE-MINUTE PERIOD OF TIME AND SHE SORT OF SAT UP.
23 Q. AND BY THE TIME HE SAID HE WANTED TO TALK TO
24 HER, YOU WERE BOTH SITTING UP AND YOU WERE HOLDING HER
25 HAND?
26 A. YES. I BELIEVE SO.
27 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
28 A. I SAID, "WELL, I'M NOT LEAVING THE ROOM."
241
1 AND HE SAID, "IS THIS WHAT IT'S COME TO? I
2 CAN'T EVEN TALK TO YOU ALONE? IS THIS WHAT IT'S COME TO?"
3 SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
4 AFTER --
5 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT TO LEAVE THEM ALONE?
6 A. BECAUSE I FELT UNCOMFORTABLE FOR NICOLE.
7 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
8 A. AFTER A FEW MINUTES OF GOING BACK AND FORTH,
9 NICOLE SAID TO ME, "IT'S OKAY, KEITH. JUST WAIT IN THE
10 KITCHEN. IT'S OKAY."
11 Q. DON'T --
12 A. SORRY. I KEEP --
13 MS. CLARK: I WILL ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD THE
14 STATEMENT ATTRIBUTED TO MRS. SIMPSON.
15 Q. SHE SAID SOMETHING TO YOU?
16 A. SHE SAID SOMETHING TO ME AND I WENT IN THE
17 KITCHEN WHERE I WAITED FOR A PERIOD OF APPROXIMATELY 15
18 MINUTES, AT WHICH TIME MR. SIMPSON CAME OUT OF THE ROOM AND
19 APPROACHED ME IN THE KITCHEN.
20 HE STUCK OUT HIS HAND TO SHAKE MY HAND, IN
21 WHICH I STUCK MY HAND OUT IN REPLY.
22 AND HE SAID, "NO HARD FEELINGS; RIGHT? NO HARD
23 FEELING?"
24 AND I LOOKED UP AT HIM AND I SAID -- I DON'T
25 RECALL IF I SAID, "NO HARD FEELINGS," BUT I SAID, "IT'S
26 OKAY," YOU KNOW, "IT'S OKAY," OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
27 AND HE SAID -- HE SAID, "YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU
28 KNOW, I'M A VERY PROUD MAN."
242
1 AND I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT HIS WORDS WERE
2 AFTER THAT, BUT HE SAID, "I'M A VERY PROUD MAN. YOU KNOW,
3 I'M VERY VISIBLE IN THIS COMMUNITY," OR SOMETHING TO THAT
4 EFFECT, I RECALL.
5 Q. ANYTHING ELSE?
6 A. NOT AT THAT TIME, NO.
7 Q. HE LEFT?
8 A. HE LEFT. YES, HE DID.
9 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE EXAMINATION OF
10 THIS WITNESS.
11 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURY IS GOING TAKE ITS
12 LUNCH RECESS AT THIS TIME.
13 MR. ZLOMSOWITCH, YOU ARE EXCUSED AND ORDERED TO
14 RETURN AT 1:00 O'CLOCK WITHOUT FURTHER SUBPOENA, REMINDER
15 OR ORDER.
16 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
17 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
18 THE FOREPERSON: BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
19 CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
20 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
21 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
22 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
23 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
24 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
25 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
26 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
27 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
28 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
243
1 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
2 YOU.
3 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
4 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
5 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
6 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
7
8 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
9 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
10
11 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS UNTIL
12 1:00 O'CLOCK.
13 THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
14 DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
15 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
16
17 (NOON RECESS TAKEN.)
18 -O0O-
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
244
1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 1994
2 1:05 P.M.
3 -O0O-
4
5 (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
6 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
7
8 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
9 MADAME SECRETARY?
10 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
11 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
12 NOW PRESENT.
13 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
14 YOU MAY PROCEED.
15 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, MADAME FOREMAN.
16 THE PEOPLE RECALL THE LAST WITNESS, KEITH
17 ZLOMSOWITCH.
18 THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: HE'S NOT HERE YET.
19
20 (SHORT PAUSE.)
21
22 THE FOREPERSON: MR. ZLOMSOWITCH?
23 THE WITNESS: YES.
24 THE FOREPERSON: YOU WILL RECALL THAT YOU HAVE
25 PREVIOUSLY BEEN SWORN AND ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
26 THE WITNESS: YES.
27 THE FOREPERSON: WILL YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR
28 THE RECORD.
245
1 THE WITNESS: KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH.
2
3 KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH,
4 RECALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND
5 JURY, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY DULY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND
6 AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
7
8 E X A M I N A T I O N (RESUMED)
9 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q. THE LAST INCIDENT YOU RELATED TO US BEFORE WE
11 TOOK THE BREAK OCCURRED ALSO IN APRIL OF 1992?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DID YOU AND NICOLE EVER SHOW ANY AFFECTION
14 TOWARDS EACH OTHER IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN?
15 A. NEVER.
16 Q. WAS THERE ANOTHER INCIDENT INVOLVING
17 MR. SIMPSON?
18 A. YES, THERE WAS.
19 Q. WHEN DID THAT OCCUR?
20 A. THAT OCCURRED ALSO IN LATE APRIL OF 1992.
21 Q. WHERE DID THAT INCIDENT TAKE PLACE?
22 A. IT TOOK PLACE AT THE BEACH HOUSE IN LAGUNA
23 BEACH.
24 Q. WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE BEACH HOUSE WITH YOU?
25 A. THERE WAS NICOLE, MYSELF, HER TWO CHILDREN,
26 SIDNEY AND JUSTIN, AND NICOLE'S THREE SISTERS, DENISE,
27 DOMINIC AND TANYA, AND DENISE'S SON AND DOMINIC'S SON, WHO
28 WERE THE SAME AGE AS NICOLE'S CHILDREN.
246
1 Q. AT SOME POINT, DID NICOLE LEAVE THE BEACH
2 HOUSE?
3 A. YES, SHE DID.
4 Q. DID THAT LEAVE YOU IN THE BEACH HOUSE ALONE?
5 A. YES, IT DID.
6 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
7 A. THE TELEPHONE RANG.
8 I WAS WATCHING A GAME BY MYSELF IN THE HOUSE
9 AND EVERYONE ELSE WAS ON THE BEACH SO I ASSUMED THEY DIDN'T
10 HEAR THE PHONE RINGING.
11 AFTER FOUR OR FIVE RINGS, I DECIDED TO PICK UP
12 THE PHONE AND ANSWER IT.
13 Q. AND WHO WAS ON THE OTHER LINE?
14 A. O.J. SIMPSON.
15 Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE HIS VOICE FROM HAVING SPOKEN
16 TO HIM ON OTHER OCCASIONS?
17 A. YES, I DID.
18 Q. WHAT DID HE SAY?
19 A. HE SAID, "WHO IS THIS," RATHER ABRUPTLY.
20 Q. WHAT WAS THE TONE OF VOICE?
21 A. VERY -- VERY ANGRY.
22 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
23 A. I SAID, "THIS IS KEITH."
24 Q. AND DID HE SAY SOMETHING TO YOU?
25 A. HE SAID, "PUT SOMEONE ELSE ON THE PHONE."
26 Q. WHAT WAS HIS TONE OF VOICE?
27 A. ANGRY AS WELL.
28 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
247
1 A. I RAN DOWN TO THE BEACH, WHICH IS DIRECTLY
2 BEHIND THE HOUSE WHERE THE SISTERS AND CHILDREN WERE
3 PLAYING ON THE BEACH, AND I BECKONED ONE OF THE SISTERS TO
4 COME UP AND TAKE THE PHONE CALL.
5 Q. AND DID SHE?
6 A. YES, SHE DID.
7 Q. DID YOU HEAR WHAT SHE SAID?
8 A. I HEARD THE FIRST SEVERAL MINUTES OF THE
9 CONVERSATION, YES.
10 Q. WHAT DID SHE SAY?
11 A. SHE SAID, "O.J., RELAX. RELAX, O.J. O.J.,
12 IT'S NO BIG DEAL."
13 Q. SHE JUST KEPT SAYING THAT?
14 A. YES, SHE DID.
15 Q. DID HE EVER APPEAR AT THE HOUSE?
16 A. NO, HE DID NOT.
17 Q. NOW, AT SOME POINT AFTER THAT, DID YOU AND
18 NICOLE TERMINATE YOUR DATING RELATIONSHIP?
19 A. YES, WE DID.
20 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
21 A. ON OR AROUND MAY 12 OF '92.
22 Q. DID YOU REMAIN FRIENDS?
23 A. YES, WE DID.
24 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
25 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
26 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
27 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
28 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
248
1
2 (SHORT PAUSE.)
3
4 Q. BY MS. CLARK: AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE
5 SEEING NICOLE IN 1992, AROUND APRIL AND MAY, WAS SHE LIVING
6 WITH O.J. SIMPSON?
7 A. NO, SHE WAS NOT.
8 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU KNEW HER IN JANUARY OF
9 1992, WAS SHE LIVING WITH O.J. SIMPSON?
10 A. NO, SHE WAS NOT.
11 Q. AT ANY TIME DURING THE TIMEFRAME THAT YOU KNEW
12 HER, WAS SHE LIVING WITH O.J. SIMPSON?
13 A. NO, SHE WAS NOT.
14 MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER.
15 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
16 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
17
18 (SHORT PAUSE.)
19
20 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL
21 QUESTIONS, MR. ZLOMSOWITCH, YOU WILL RECALL YOU HAVE
22 PREVIOUSLY BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING THE SECRECY OF THESE
23 PROCEEDINGS AND MUST HEED THAT ADMONISHMENT.
24 THE WITNESS: YES.
25 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
26 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
27 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
28
249
1 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
2 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
3
4 MS. CLARK: THE PEOPLE CALL ALLAN PARK.
5 THE FOREPERSON: ALLAN PARK?
6 THE WITNESS: YES, THAT'S ME.
7 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
8 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
9 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
10 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
11 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
12 THE WITNESS: I DO.
13 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
14 MR. PARK, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
15 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
16 THE WITNESS: ALLAN WILLIAM PARK.
17 A-L-L-A-N W-I-L-L-I-A-M P-A-R-K.
18 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
19 YOU MAY PROCEED.
20 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
21
22 ALLAN WILLIAM PARK,
23 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
24 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
25
26 E X A M I N A T I O N
27 BY MS. CLARK:
28 Q. MR. PARK, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU DO FOR A
250
1 LIVING.
2 A. I DRIVE LIMOUSINES FOR TOWN AND COUNTRY LIMO.
3 Q. I WILL ASK YOU TO SPEAK INTO THE MICROPHONE.
4 CAN YOU PULL IT TOWARDS YOU OR PULL IT IN YOUR DIRECTION.
5 HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO EMPLOYED?
6 A. I HAVE BEEN EMPLOYED WITH THAT COMPANY FOR 3
7 MONTHS.
8 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF
9 JUNE 12, 1994, DID YOU HAVE AN ORDER TO GO TO A LOCATION IN
10 BRENTWOOD THAT EVENING?
11 A. YES, I DID.
12 Q. WHAT LOCATION WAS THAT?
13 A. 360 ROCKINGHAM; TO O.J. SIMPSON'S HOUSE.
14 Q. WHAT TIME WERE YOU ORDERED TO BE THERE?
15 A. I WAS ORDERED TO PICK HIM UP AT 10:45.
16 Q. DID YOU GO THERE?
17 A. YES, I DID.
18 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET THERE?
19 A. I ARRIVED AT 10:25.
20 I WAS A LITTLE BIT EARLY TO MAKE SURE I KNEW
21 WHERE THE HOUSE WAS. I DID NOT WANT TO BE LATE.
22 I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THE AREA BEFORE.
23 Q. THAT AREA WAS UNKNOWN TO YOU?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST GOT THERE AT 10:25, WHERE DID
26 YOU PARK?
27 A. I PARKED ON ASHFORD.
28 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A DIAGRAM AND
251
1 PHOTOGRAPHS.
2 A. OKAY.
3 Q. I WILL LET YOU ORIENT YOURSELF FOR A MINUTE.
4 THIS IS COVERING THE WORD "ASHFORD."
5 DO YOU SEE THAT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DO YOU GET A FEELING FOR WHERE YOU ARE NOW?
8 A. OKAY.
9 I WAS PARKED -- I CAME UP ROCKINGHAM ON THIS
10 SIDE, MADE A RIGHT TURN ON ASHFORD, CAME DOWN, SAW WHERE
11 THE GATE WAS HERE AND MADE A U-TURN AND PARKED ON THE
12 OPPOSITE SIDE OF O.J.'S HOUSE.
13 I THEN GOT OUT --
14 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THAT YOU PARKED ON THE OPPOSITE
15 SIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE, DID YOU MEAN YOU PARKED ACROSS
16 THE STREET?
17 A. YES, I DID.
18 Q. THAT WAS AT 10:25?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
21 A. I GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND I SMOKED A CIGARETTE.
22 Q. WHERE WERE YOU AT THAT TIME?
23 A. JUST AT THE BACK OF THE CAR.
24 I SAT ON THE CURB.
25 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE INTO THE DRIVEWAY AREA OR
26 THE ROCKINGHAM AREA OF THE DRIVEWAY AT THAT TIME?
27 A. YES, I COULD.
28 Q. HOW MUCH COULD YOU SEE?
252
1 A. JUST ABOUT THE VIEW OF THIS RIGHT HERE.
2 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS CIRCLED
3 AN AREA THAT IS MARKED "DRIVEWAY."
4 HE'S CIRCLED IT FROM THE PORTION OF THE DIAGRAM
5 DESIGNATED AS THE GATE AND THE CIRCLE ENCOMPASSES THE AREA
6 JUST BEFORE THE "G.B." HERE --
7 THE WITNESS: YES.
8 MS. CLARK: -- THE AREA JUST BEFORE WHERE "G.B." IS
9 MARKED, THAT PORTION OF THE DRIVEWAY.
10 Q. AT WHAT POINT DID YOU GET BACK IN YOUR CAR, IF
11 YOU DID?
12 A. I GOT BACK IN AT ABOUT 10:30 AND SAT THERE AND
13 WAITED UNTIL ABOUT 10:40 AND THEN I PULLED UP TO THE FRONT
14 GATE ON ASHFORD.
15 Q. DID YOU GET BACK IN YOUR CAR AND DRIVE AROUND
16 AT ANY POINT?
17 A. BEFORE -- BEFORE I PULLED INTO THE GATE ON
18 ASHFORD, I CAME OUT ON TO ROCKINGHAM.
19 Q. HOW FAR DOWN ROCKINGHAM DID YOU COME?
20 A. I CAME ALL THE WAY TO THE GATE OF ROCKINGHAM.
21 Q. DID YOU NOTICE ANY CAR PARKED IN FRONT?
22 A. NO, I DID NOT.
23 Q. THERE WASN'T ANY CAR THERE?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. YOU WERE LOOKING THERE AND YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN
26 IT?
27 A. YEAH, I WOULD HAVE SAW IT IF IT WAS THERE.
28 Q. WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
253
1 A. THAT WAS JUST BEFORE 10:40.
2 Q. ABOUT 10:35 OR SO?
3 A. YEAH.
4 I THEN NOTICED THAT IT WOULD BE A LOT EASIER IF
5 I JUST BACKED UP AND CAME BACK TO THE OTHER DRIVEWAY
6 BECAUSE IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE I WOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE
7 TURN IN THE LIMOUSINE.
8 SO I DROVE BACK TO THE OTHER GATE.
9 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE OTHER GATE," YOU MEAN THE
10 ASHFORD GATE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHERE DID YOU PARK THAT TIME?
13 A. I PARKED FACE-FIRST INTO THE DRIVEWAY LOOKING
14 TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE.
15 Q. YOU PARKED RIGHT UP IN THE DRIVEWAY AREA JUST
16 IN FRONT OF THE GATE?
17 A. YES, I DID.
18 Q. AND YOU WERE FACING IN?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT THEN?
21 A. 10:40.
22 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
23 A. I GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND I RANG THE FRONT GATE
24 AND THERE WAS NO ANSWER, SO I PROCEEDED TO RING THE GATE
25 OVER AND OVER AND STILL THERE WAS NO ANSWER.
26 AT THAT TIME, I GOT BACK INTO THE CAR AND
27 CALLED MY BOSS TO LET HIM KNOW THAT I THOUGHT THERE WAS
28 NOBODY HOME.
254
1 FIRST I PAGED HIM, THEN HE CALLED ME BACK.
2 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO TO PAGE HIM?
3 WHERE DID YOU GO?
4 A. I JUST CALLED FROM THE --
5 Q. FROM THE CAR?
6 A. YES, FROM THE CAR PHONE.
7 Q. SO YOU WERE SEATED INSIDE THE CAR THAT WAS
8 FACING -- PARKED OUTSIDE THE GATE --
9 A. YES.
10 Q. -- FACING IN TO THE HOUSE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHEN YOU WERE CALLING YOUR BOSS, WERE YOU ABLE
13 TO SEE ANY PORTION OF THE ROCKINGHAM DRIVEWAY?
14 A. YES.
15 I COULD SEE TO ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THE GARAGE
16 AREA, ABOUT TO HERE.
17 Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW US AGAIN TO WHAT AREA YOU
18 THINK YOU COULD SEE.
19 A. JUST TO ABOUT THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE, ACROSS
20 TO THE -- WELL, TOWARDS THE PLAY AREA.
21 Q. SO YOU ARE POINTING TO --
22 A. FROM ABOUT HERE UP TO HERE.
23 Q. THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE AS IT'S MARKED ON THIS
24 DIAGRAM THAT'S CLOSEST TO THE FRONT DOOR?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. AND IF YOU DREW A LINE ALL THE WAY BACK, THAT
27 WOULD BE STRAIGHT BACK FROM THAT POINT, THAT'S ABOUT AS
28 MUCH AS YOU COULD SEE?
255
1 A. YES.
2 Q. YOU COULD NOT SEE THEN THE PORTION OF THE
3 DRIVEWAY I'M DESIGNATING HERE, WHICH IS A STRAIGHT PORTION
4 THAT FEEDS ON TO ROCKINGHAM DRIVE?
5 A. NO, I COULDN'T.
6 Q. SO YOU MADE THE CALL TO YOUR BOSS AND THEN WHAT
7 HAPPENED?
8 A. HE CALLED ME BACK.
9 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU MADE THE CALL TO YOUR
10 BOSS?
11 A. I CALLED HIM FIRST AT ABOUT -- RIGHT IN BETWEEN
12 10:50 AND 10:55.
13 HE THEN CALLED ME BACK AT 10:55 AND I TOLD HIM
14 THAT I DID NOT THINK THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS HOME; THAT THERE
15 WERE NO LIGHTS ON DOWNSTAIRS, THERE WAS ONLY ONE LIGHT ON
16 UPSTAIRS AND THAT -- I JUST TOLD HIM I DIDN'T THINK HE WAS
17 HOME.
18 Q. WHILE YOU WERE TALKING TO YOUR BOSS, WERE YOU
19 FOCUSED ON THIS FRONT AREA OR WERE YOU LOOKING ALL AROUND?
20 A. NO, I WAS FOCUSED ON THE FRONT AREA.
21 Q. WHY WERE YOU FOCUSED ON THE FRONT AREA?
22 A. BECAUSE JUST THE WAY I WAS -- YOU KNOW, IT'S
23 JUST THE WAY THE CAR WAS FACING.
24 I WAS LOOKING STRAIGHT OUT THE FRONT WINDSHIELD
25 INTO HIS FRONT AREA, THE FRONT DOOR AND THE DRIVEWAY.
26 Q. WERE YOUR HEADLIGHTS ON?
27 A. NO. I HAD MY PARKING LIGHTS ON.
28 Q. NOW, DID YOU STAY IN THE CAR WHILE YOU WAITED
256
1 FOR YOUR BOSS TO CALL YOU BACK?
2 A. YES, I DID.
3 Q. AND WHAT TIME DID HE CALL YOU BACK?
4 A. AT ABOUT 10:55.
5 Q. AND YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
6 A. YEAH.
7 I TOLD HIM --
8 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME THAT.
9 A. OKAY.
10 Q. BUT JUST TELL US WHAT YOU DID NEXT AFTER THE
11 PHONE CALL.
12 A. WELL, HE TOLD ME THAT --
13 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT HE TOLD YOU.
14 A. OKAY.
15 Q. HE SAID SOMETHING TO YOU?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. AFTER THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
18 A. AT THAT POINT, I SAW SOMEBODY. I SAW TWO
19 PEOPLE.
20 Q. TELL US, WHO DID YOU SEE FIRST?
21 A. FIRST, I SAW THE WHITE MALE.
22 Q. YOU SAW A MALE WHITE?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHERE WAS HE?
25 A. HE CAME FROM THE BACK YARD AREA, FROM THIS AREA
26 UP TO THE DRIVEWAY.
27 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS
28 INDICATING WHEN HE SAID, "THIS AREA," IT IS THE PORTION AS
257
1 YOU FACE THE DIAGRAM THAT IS JUST ABOVE THE FRONT DOOR.
2 Q. AND HE WAS WALKING IN THAT AREA THERE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIM?
5 A. BLOND HAIR, SHOULDER-LENGTH HAIR, 5-10, 160
6 POUNDS, JEANS, T-SHIRT, AND HE HAD A FLASHLIGHT.
7 AT THAT POINT -- AT THAT POINT, HE JUST STOOD
8 THERE AND GAVE ME A SIGNAL THAT HE SAW ME. HE WAVED TO
9 ME.
10 AND JUST SECONDS AFTER THAT, I SAW A BLACK
11 MALE, 6 FOOT 1, 100 AND -- 200 POUNDS COME FROM -- THE AREA
12 THAT I SAW HIM FROM WAS ABOUT --
13 Q. PLEASE POINT TO IT ON THE DIAGRAM.
14 AND I WILL ASK YOU TO PUT AN "X" ON THAT AREA
15 WHERE YOU FIRST SAW HIM.
16 A. I SAW HIM ABOUT HERE.
17 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS DONE SO.
18 THE WITNESS: I SAW HIM FROM THERE AND HE PROCEEDED
19 INTO THE FRONT DOOR.
20 Q. BY MS. CLARK: HOW WAS HE MOVING?
21 A. HE WAS NOT RUNNING, BUT HE WAS MOVING QUICKLY.
22 Q. WHAT WAS HE WEARING?
23 Q. FROM WHAT I CAN TELL, IT WAS DARK CLOTHES.
24 I CANNOT TELL WHAT KIND OF CLOTHES, SUIT OR
25 ANYTHING. IT WAS JUST A DARK SHIRT AND DARK PARTS.
26 Q. COULD YOU TELL IF THE SHIRT HAD LONG OR SHORT
27 SLEEVES?
28 A. NO, I COULDN'T.
258
1 Q. DID YOU SEE WHERE THIS MALE BLACK WENT?
2 A. HE WENT INTO THE FRONT DOOR AND ENTERED THE
3 HOUSE.
4 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THE HOUSE, WERE THERE
5 ANY LIGHTS ON?
6 A. ONLY ONE UPSTAIRS.
7 Q. NONE DOWNSTAIRS?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. WHEN THE MALE BLACK WALKED INTO THE HOUSE, WHAT
10 HAPPENED NEXT?
11 A. SOME LIGHTS TURNED ON DOWNSTAIRS AND THE MALE
12 WHITE STILL DID NOT LET ME IN.
13 AND I GOT BACK OUT OF THE CAR AND I RANG THE
14 BELL AGAIN AND O.J. ANSWERED THE INTERCOM FROM THERE.
15 Q. YOU ARE SAYING, "O.J."
16 WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
17 ARE YOU REFERRING TO MR. SIMPSON?
18 A. MR. SIMPSON.
19 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS HIS VOICE?
20 A. I JUST CAN TELL FROM JUST HEARING HIM FOR YEARS
21 AND YEARS ON T.V.
22 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE BELL," YOU ARE RINGING "THE
23 BELL," WHERE IS THAT BELL?
24 A. IT'S RIGHT ABOUT HERE.
25 THERE'S A LITTLE INTERCOM.
26 Q. CAN YOU PLEASE CIRCLE THAT POINT ON THE
27 DIAGRAM.
28 A. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
259
1 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS HAS PLACED A BLUE CIRCLE AT
2 THE PORTION OF THE GATE WHERE HE INDICATES THE BELL WAS.
3 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU SOME PICTURES.
4 THIS IS THE DIAGRAM THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY MARKED,
5 OR PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 2.
6 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION
7 DEPICTED THERE.
8 A. YES, I DO.
9 Q. WHAT IS IT?
10 A. WHAT IS WHAT?
11 Q. WHAT IS THAT LOCATION?
12 A. -A?
13 Q. NO.
14 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION?
15 HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THERE?
16 A. YES, I HAVE.
17 Q. OKAY.
18 WHAT LOCATION IS IT?
19 THE FOREPERSON: BE CAREFUL AND SPEAK DIRECTLY INTO
20 THE MICROPHONE, MR. PARK.
21 THEY ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY HEARING YOU.
22 THE WITNESS: I NOTICED IT TO BE 360 ROCKINGHAM LANE.
23 Q. BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT LOCATION YOU WENT TO?
24 A. YES, IT IS.
25 Q. THAT'S WHERE YOU WENT TO PICK UP MR. SIMPSON?
26 A. YES, IT IS.
27 Q. NOW, AFTER YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK ENTER THE
28 HOUSE, THE LIGHTS WENT ON, YOU RANG THE BELL AND YOU HAD A
260
1 CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE.
2 A. YES.
3 Q. YOU RECOGNIZED THAT PERSON WHO ANSWERED THE
4 BELL AS MR. SIMPSON?
5 A. YES, I DID.
6 Q. WHAT DID HE SAY?
7 A. HE SAID, "SORRY. I OVERSLEPT AND I JUST GOT
8 OUT OF THE SHOWER. I WILL BE DOWN IN A MINUTE."
9 Q. NOW, DO YOU SEE THE HEDGE THAT'S SHOWN IN -B,
10 PHOTOGRAPH -B?
11 A. YES, I DO.
12 Q. UNLESS YOU ARE IN FRONT OF THE GATE, IS YOUR
13 VIEW OF THE HOUSE PRETTY MUCH BLOCKED?
14 A. YES, IT IS.
15 Q. PHOTOGRAPH -A, IS THAT THE ASHFORD SIDE GATE
16 THAT YOU WAITED AT WHEN YOU FIRST GOT THERE?
17 A. YES, IT IS.
18 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE MALE WHITE FOR US A LITTLE
19 BIT BETTER.
20 GIVE US A A FURTHER DESCRIPTION OF THE MALE
21 WHITE YOU SPOKE TO.
22 A. LIKE I SAID, HE WAS 5 FOOT 10, 160 POUNDS,
23 BLOND HAIR, SHOULDER-LENGTH, BLUE JEANS, T-SHIRT.
24 THAT'S ABOUT ALL I NOTICED.
25 Q. WAS HE CARRYING ANYTHING?
26 A. HE HAD A FLASHLIGHT.
27 Q. AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH
28 MR. SIMPSON, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
261
1 A. THE MALE WHITE PAUSED FOR ANOTHER MINUTE AS HE
2 WAS STILL STANDING IN THE SAME POSITION AS WHERE HE WAS.
3 AT THAT TIME, HE PROCEEDED TO COME OVER AND
4 OPEN THE GATE FOR ME.
5 Q. AND YOU PULLED IN?
6 A. YES, I DID.
7 Q. WHERE DID YOU STOP YOUR CAR?
8 A. RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR ON THE
9 DRIVEWAY.
10 Q. THE AREA THAT IS SHOWN AS -E IN PEOPLE'S 2?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING IN THE FRONT WALK?
13 A. THERE WERE TWO BLACK BAGS.
14 Q. WHAT KIND?
15 A. JUST DUFFEL BAGS.
16 Q. WAS MR. SIMPSON OUTSIDE YET AT THAT POINT?
17 A. NO, HE WASN'T.
18 Q. WHEN, IN RELATION TO SEEING THE MALE WHITE COME
19 OUT FROM THE ASHFORD SIDE OF THE HOUSE, DID YOU SEE THIS
20 MALE BLACK WALKING DOWN THE DRIVEWAY?
21 A. AS IN TIME?
22 Q. YES.
23 A. SECONDS.
24 Q. ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS?
25 A. ALMOST, IF NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY.
26 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER BAGS THAT WERE IN THE
27 DRIVEWAY?
28 A. THERE WAS ONE TOWARDS THE ROCKINGHAM ENTRANCE,
262
1 BEHIND THE ROLLS ROYCE.
2 Q. WHAT DID IT LOOKS LIKE?
3 A. IT SEEMED TO BE ANOTHER DARK BAG.
4 Q. COULD YOU GIVE A -- IS THAT THE BEST
5 DESCRIPTION YOU CAN GIVE?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DO YOU SEE AN "R" ON THE DIAGRAM THAT'S BEEN
8 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 3?
9 A. YES, I DO.
10 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING A ROLLS ROYCE IN THE
11 DRIVEWAY?
12 A. YES, I DO.
13 Q. WAS IT IN APPROXIMATELY THE POSITION AS "R"
14 HERE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. THE BAG YOU HAVE REFERRED TO, WHERE IN RELATION
17 TO THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS IT?
18 A. IT'S ABOUT WHERE THE "B" WAS ON THE DIAGRAM.
19 Q. SO YOU THINK THAT'S ACCURATE?
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. THE DUFFEL BAGS THAT YOU RECALL SEEING, WHERE
22 WERE THEY, IF YOU CAN SHOW US ON THE DIAGRAM MARKED
23 PEOPLE'S 3?
24 A. RIGHT WHERE THE "G.B." IS LOCATED.
25 Q. DID YOU DO ANYTHING WITH THOSE DUFFEL BAGS?
26 A. YES.
27 I ASKED O.J. SIMPSON WHERE HE WOULD LIKE THEM,
28 IF HE WOULD WANT THEM IN THE TRUNK OR IN THE CAR.
263
1 HE ASKED ME TO PUT THOSE TWO DUFFEL BAGS INSIDE
2 THE LIMOUSINE.
3 Q. NOW, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE MALE
4 WHITE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. DID YOU EVER LEARN HIS NAME?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. AT WHAT POINT DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH
9 HIM?
10 A. AFTER HE LET ME IN, I OPENED THE TRUNK TO THE
11 CAR AND FROM -- FROM THE INSIDE OF THE CAR AND THEN I
12 STEPPED OUT.
13 AND HE APPROACHED ME AND ASKED ME HOW LONG I
14 HAVE BEEN RINGING THE BELL.
15 AND I TOLD HIM I HAVE BEEN OUT FRONT FOR ABOUT
16 15 MINUTES.
17 Q. NOW, WAS MR. SIMPSON PRESENT DURING THAT
18 CONVERSATION?
19 A. NO, HE WASN'T.
20 Q. AT SOME POINT WHILE YOU WERE TALKING TO THIS
21 MALE WHITE, DID MR. SIMPSON APPEAR?
22 A. YES, HE DID.
23 Q. AND WAS SOMETHING SAID BY EITHER YOU OR THE
24 OTHER PERSON CONCERNING AN EARTHQUAKE?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WITHOUT RELATING THAT TO ME, CAN YOU TELL ME IF
27 MR. SIMPSON MADE A RESPONSE TO THAT?
28 A. I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION.
264
1 Q. WERE YOU DISCUSSING AN EARTHQUAKE WITH THE MALE
2 WHITE?
3 A. YES, I WAS.
4 Q. DID MR. SIMPSON MAKE A REMARK CONCERNING THAT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT DID HE SAY?
7 A. HE SAID IN A QUESTIONING KIND OF WAY, "OH? WE
8 HAD AN EARTHQUAKE?"
9 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
10 A. AT THAT POINT, I PUT ANOTHER BAG INTO THE CAR
11 THAT HE BROUGHT DOWN FROM -- OR BROUGHT OUT FROM THE HOUSE,
12 WHICH IT WAS A GUCCI LOOKING BAG. IT LOOKED LIKE A GARMENT
13 BAG.
14 HE HANDED THAT TO ME AND I PUT THAT INTO THE
15 TRUNK.
16 AFTER THAT, MR. SIMPSON AND THIS OTHER WHITE
17 MALE WALKED INTO THE HOUSE AND THEY WERE JUST STANDING
18 INSIDE THE ENTRYWAY OF THE HOUSE.
19 WHAT THEY SAID, I DON'T KNOW. I COULD NOT
20 HEAR. I JUST WAS STANDING BY THE CAR AT THIS POINT.
21 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE BAG BY THE ROLLS ROYCE?
22 WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT BAG?
23 A. THE WHITE MALE OFFERED TO GO GET IT AND
24 MR. SIMPSON SAID, "NO; NO. THAT'S OKAY. I CAN GET IT.
25 THAT'S ALL RIGHT."
26 Q. DID MR. SIMPSON GET THAT BAG?
27 A. YES, HE DID.
28 Q. YOU SAW HIM DO THAT?
265
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DID YOU SEE WHERE HE PUT IT?
3 A. HE PUT IT IN THE TRUNK.
4 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU
5 THIS:
6 HE PUT THAT INTO THE TRUNK BEFORE OR AFTER HE
7 STEPPED INTO THE HOUSE WITH THE MALE WHITE AND HAD THE
8 CONVERSATION?
9 A. THAT WAS BEFORE.
10 Q. THAT WAS BEFORE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. SO WHEN YOU PULLED INTO THE DRIVEWAY, YOU BEGAN
13 LOADING THE BAGS, YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH THE OTHER
14 MALE WHITE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. MR. SIMPSON CAME DOWN --
17 A. YES.
18 Q. -- AND YOU WERE STILL LOADING THE BAGS?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DURING THAT TIME WAS WHEN HE WENT OVER AND GOT
21 THE BAG BY THE ROLLS ROYCE?
22 MR. SIMPSON, THAT IS.
23 A. YES.
24 HE GOT THAT BAG AND HE ALSO MADE ANOTHER TRIP
25 TO GET HIS GOLF BAG FROM ONE OF THE VEHICLES. I DIDN'T SEE
26 WHICH ONE OF THE CARS HE GOT IT OUT OF.
27 AND AT THAT POINT --
28 Q. AFTER THE BAGS WERE LOADED, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
266
1 A. THAT'S -- THAT'S WHEN THEY WENT INTO THE HOUSE
2 AND THEY DISCUSSED SOMETHING BRIEFLY. I DON'T KNOW.
3 AND TO GO BACK, WHEN MR. SIMPSON MADE THE
4 COMMENT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, "OH, WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE?" THE
5 MALE WHITE SAID, "YES," OR, YOU KNOW, HE SAID, "WE MIGHT
6 HAVE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE."
7 Q. DON'T RELATE TO US WHAT THE MALE WHITE SAID.
8 A. OKAY.
9 Q. WHAT ELSE -- AFTER THEY HAD THEIR CONVERSATION
10 IN THE DRIVEWAY, IN THE ENTRYWAY OF THE HOUSE, THEN WHAT?
11 A. AT THAT TIME THEY CAME BACK OUT, I CLOSED THE
12 CAR UP AND HE SAID, "WE HAVE GOT TO GO."
13 Q. DID HE SAY SOMETHING ELSE TO THE MALE WHITE?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT?
16 A. HE -- WHEN THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE
17 EARTHQUAKE, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, GOING AND
18 SEARCHING THE PROPERTY TOGETHER.
19 HE TOLD THE MALE WHITE, "YOU GO ONE WAY AND I'LL
20 GO THE OTHER WAY."
21 AT THAT TIME, I HAD THE CAR CLOSED UP AND I WAS
22 READY TO GO AND AS I HEARD HIM SAY THAT, I FIGURED IF THERE
23 WAS ANY KIND OF TROUBLE THAT I WOULD WALK AROUND THE HOUSE
24 WITH THEM.
25 AT THAT POINT, THE MALE WHITE WALKED OVER TO
26 THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE AND O.J. SIMPSON NEVER FOLLOWED
27 HIM.
28 HE JUST CAME OVER TO THE BACK OF THE CAR AND
267
1 SAID, "WE HAVE GOT TO GO," AND HE JUMPED IN.
2 Q. NOW, DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE
3 WAY MR. SIMPSON WAS BEHAVI G?
4 A. NOTHING WAS UNUSUAL TO ME AT THE TIME.
5 I MEAN, THERE WAS THINGS --
6 Q. LET ME BE MORE SPECIFIC:
7 DID HE APPEAR TO BE INTOXICATED IN ANY WAY?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO BE UPSET OR ANGRY?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO BE NERVOUS?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO BE -- STRIKE THAT.
14 WHAT WAS HE WEARING?
15 A. HE WAS WEARING A WHITE COLORED SHIRT, SHORT
16 SLEEVES, BLUE JEANS AND THAT WAS ABOUT IT.
17 I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF SHOES HE WAS
18 WEARING. I DIDN'T NOTICE ANY OF THAT.
19 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE THAT
20 NIGHT?
21 A. IT WAS MILD.
22 Q. WAS IT COOL?
23 A. IT WAS A LITTLE WARM.
24 IT WASN'T HOT, BUT IT WAS A NICE NIGHT. IT WAS
25 COMFORTABLE.
26 Q. WERE YOU SWEATING?
27 A. NO, I WASN'T.
28 Q. WHAT DID YOU NOTICE, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT
268
1 MR. SIMPSON THAT NIGHT IN THAT REGARD?
2 A. WELL, HE WAS IN THE BACK OF THE CAR AND HE
3 REPEATED A FEW TIMES, HE KEPT SAYING, "WHEW, I'M HOT.
4 WHEW, MAN, I'M HOT."
5 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO BE SWEATING?
6 A. I COULD NOT SEE, NOT FROM THE POINT I WAS AT,
7 NOT IN THE LIMOUSINE, NO, I COULDN'T SEE THAT.
8 BUT HE DID HAVE TO HAVE THE WINDOW DOWN AND HE
9 DID TURN ON THE AIR CONDITIONING.
10 Q. DID HIS HAIR -- WHEN YOU FIRST SAW HIM, DID HIS
11 HAIR APPEAR TO BE WET?
12 A. NO, IT DIDN'T.
13 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE AIRPORT, WHAT HAPPENED?
14 A. WHEN WE GOT TO THE AIRPORT, WE PULLED UP TO
15 AMERICAN AIRLINES AND I GOT OUT OF THE CAR, I OPENED THE
16 DOOR FOR MR. SIMPSON, I HAD THE TRUNK OPEN AND I PULLED OUT
17 THE GUCCI BAG.
18 AS I PULLED THAT OUT, MR. SIMPSON ASKED ME IF I
19 COULD GO GET A SKY CAP. SO I SAT THE BAG DOWN AND
20 PROCEEDED TO DO THAT.
21 I FOUND A SKY CAP, BUT THEY WERE BUSY AT THE
22 TIME AND SAID THEY COULDN'T HELP ME AT THE TIME.
23 SO I WALKED INTO THE AIRPORT ENTRANCE AND
24 GRABBED A LITTLE CARRIER, LUGGAGE CARRIER, WENT BACK TO
25 MR. SIMPSON AT THE CAR.
26 I THEN PUT THE GOLF CLUBS ON THE CART AND I PUT
27 THE GUCCI BAG ON THE CART, WALKED OVER TO THE SKY CAP WITH
28 HIM AND I JUST PLACED THE GOLF BAGS ONTO THE CART AND THE
269
1 GUCCI BAG.
2 AT THAT TIME, HE WAS JUST PULLING SOME MONEY
3 OUT OF HIS POCKET AND TALKING TO THE SKY CAP AND CHECKING
4 HIS BAGS IN.
5 AND AT THAT TIME I ASKED HIM IF HE NEEDED
6 ANYTHING ELSE AND HE SAID, "NO; ADD 20 PERCENT TO THE
7 BILL."
8 AND THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH WHAT WAS SAID.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE WHICH BAGS HE CHECKED AND WHICH
10 BAGS HE WAS CARRYING ON?
11 A. NO.
12 I PUT THE GOLF BAG ON THE BIG CART AND THE
13 GUCCI BAG ONTO THE SKY CAP'S CART. HE HAD THE OTHER BAGS
14 WITH HIM.
15 WHAT HE BOARDED WITH, I DON'T KNOW THAT.
16 Q. ON THE RIDE TO THE AIRPORT, DID YOU SPEAK TO
17 HIM AT ALL?
18 WAS THERE ANY CONVERSATION?
19 A. NO.
20 HE JUST -- LIKE I SAID, HE SAID A COUPLE
21 THINGS, THAT HE WAS REALLY HOT.
22 HE SAID, "I KNOW I FORGOT SOMETHING" A COUPLE
23 TIMES.
24 AND I SAID, "YOU KNOW, THAT USUALLY HAPPENS
25 WHEN YOU ARE IN A HURRY," OR, "THAT USUALLY HAPPENS WHEN YOU
26 ARE GOING ON A TRIP."
27 HE ASKED ME WHAT TIME IT WAS A COUPLE OF TIMES,
28 ASKED ME WHERE THE LIGHT WAS IN THE BACK OF THE LIMOUSINE.
270
1 I TOLD HIM.
2 Q. DID HE TURN ON THE LIGHT?
3 A. YEAH, HE DID.
4 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING WHEN HE TURNED ON THE LIGHT?
5 A. I DON'T LOOK BACK THERE.
6 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANYBODY MOVE AT ALL IN
7 YOUR REAR-VIEW MIRROR?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING?
10 A. HE WAS CHECKING HIS BAGS.
11 I FIGURED IT WAS THE TWO BLACK BAGS THAT WERE
12 INSIDE.
13 Q. DID YOU HEAR THEM GET UNZIPPED?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. WHEN YOU PULLED UP TO THE DRIVEWAY, DID YOU
16 HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER EITHER OF THE DUFFEL BAGS WAS
17 UNZIPPED?
18 A. ONE WAS UNZIPPED, YES.
19 Q. DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE WHAT WAS INSIDE?
20 A. NO. I DIDN'T LOOK.
21 Q. WHEN YOU PULLED OUT OF THE DRIVEWAY OF THE
22 SUSPECT'S HOUSE, WHAT DRIVEWAY EXIT DID YOU USE, ASHFORD OR
23 ROCKINGHAM?
24 A. ROCKINGHAM.
25 Q. WHEN YOU PULLED OUT OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE,
26 WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY CAR PARKED ON THE STREET NEXT TO
27 THAT GATE?
28 A. THERE WAS A VEHICLE TO MY LEFT.
271
1 WHEN I WAS EXITING, I NOTICED I HAD TO LOOK
2 AROUND A VEHICLE. I NEVER NOTICED WHAT KIND OF VEHICLE IT
3 WAS. I DIDN'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THAT.
4 BUT THERE WAS A VEHICLE THERE.
5 Q. YOU SAY A VEHICLE TO YOUR LEFT.
6 THAT WOULD BE THE AREA I'M INDICATING WITH MY
7 PEN?
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. WHY DON'T YOU MARK THAT.
10 YOU SAID YOU NOTICED A VEHICLE DOWN THERE.
11 A. YES.
12 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
13 Q. GO AHEAD AND HAVE A SEAT.
14 YOU EXITED OUT OF THE GATE THAT FEEDS ON TO
15 ROCKINGHAM.
16 IS THAT RIGHT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. SO YOU ARE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF YOUR CAR; RIGHT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A LEFT OUT OF THE
21 GATE?
22 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
23 Q. SO YOU ARE LOOKING TO YOUR LEFT FOR TRAFFIC,
24 FOR ONCOMING TRAFFIC?
25 A. YEAH, BOTH WAYS.
26 Q. DID YOU ATTEMPT TO LOOK VERY CAREFULLY TO SEE
27 WHETHER CARS WERE PARKED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DRIVEWAY?
28 A. THERE WERE NO CARS.
272
1 Q. ARE YOU SURE?
2 A. I'M PRETTY SURE.
3 Q. DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO LOOK AND SEE IF THERE
4 WERE ANY CARS THERE?
5 A. I LOOKED TO THE RIGHT TO SEE IF THERE WERE ANY
6 CARS COMING DOWN THE STREET.
7 Q. WELL, I'M ASKING YOU IF YOU LOOKED TO -- MADE
8 AN EFFORT TO SEE IF THERE WAS A CAR PARKED.
9 A. NO.
10 Q. THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A CAR PARKED THERE AND
11 YOU DIDN'T SEE IT?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?
14 THE FOREPERSON: YES.
15
16 (SHORT PAUSE.)
17
18 MS. CLARK: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
19 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
20 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
21 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
22 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
23
24 (SHORT PAUSE.)
25
26 Q. BY MS. CLARK: MR. PARK, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW
27 THE MALE BLACK WALKING ON THE DRIVEWAY, THAT'S THE POINT
28 WHERE YOU PUT THE "X."
273
1 IS THAT RIGHT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. COULD YOU TELL WHETHER HE WAS COMING FROM THE
4 AREA ON THE SIDE OF THE GARAGE OR FROM THE DRIVEWAY COMING
5 UP, BASED ON WHERE YOU SAW HIM?
6 A. NO, I COULDN'T TELL YOU WHICH DIRECTION HE WAS
7 COMING IN OR WHAT AREA HE CAME FROM.
8 Q. ALL YOU CAN TELL US AT THIS TIME IS THAT YOU
9 SAW HIM IN THE PLACE THAT YOU DID, WALKING QUICKLY TOWARDS
10 THE FRONT DOOR?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHEN MR. SIMPSON CAME OUT TO GET INTO THE
13 LIMOUSINE, DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER HE HAD ANY BANDAGES ON
14 HIS HANDS OR BAND-AIDS?
15 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
16 Q. THE MALE WHITE THAT YOU SAW ALMOST
17 SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE MALE BLACK, AT THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU
18 FIRST SAW THEM BOTH, DID THE MALE WHITE SPEAK TO THE MALE
19 BLACK?
20 A. NO.
21 Q. OR VICE VERSA?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. DID THE MALE WHITE ASK YOU FOR A FLASHLIGHT?
24 A. YES, HE DID.
25 Q. DID HE ALSO ASK YOU SOMETHING ABOUT AN
26 EARTHQUAKE.
27 A. HE ASKED ME IF I FELT AN EARTHQUAKE.
28 Q. HOW MUCH TIME ELAPSED BETWEEN THE TIME YOU
274
1 FIRST SAW THE MALE BLACK ENTER THE HOUSE AND THE MOMENT
2 WHEN YOU SPOKE TO HIM ON THE INTERCOM?
3 A. I'LL SAY NO MORE THAN A MINUTE.
4 Q. DID YOU BUZZ IMMEDIATELY AFTER SEEING THE
5 LIGHTS GO ON AFTER YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK GO INSIDE THE
6 HOUSE?
7 A. NOT IMMEDIATELY.
8 I WAS STILL ON THE PHONE.
9 Q. WITH YOUR BOSS?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO AT THE MOMENT YOU SAW HIM ENTER THE HOUSE,
12 IT COULD HAVE BEEN 10:55 OR 10:56 -- YOU WERE ON THE PHONE
13 WITH YOUR BOSS AT 10:55?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. YOU WERE STILL ON THE PHONE WHEN YOU SAW THE
16 MALE BLACK WALK INTO THE HOUSE?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WERE YOU ON YOUR PHONE WITH YOUR BOSS FOR ABOUT
19 A MINUTE OR SO?
20 A. NOT THAT LONG.
21 Q. YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK ENTER, THEN YOU HUNG UP
22 THE PHONE?
23 A. NOT RIGHT AWAY.
24 Q. WELL, HOW LONG AFTER THE MALE BLACK ENTERED DID
25 YOU HANG UP THE PHONE?
26 A. 30 SECONDS.
27 Q. AND AS YOU WERE TALKING ON THE PHONE, THEN, TO
28 YOUR BOSS, YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK ENTER THE HOUSE; YOU SAW
275
1 THE LIGHTS GO ON.
2 IS THAT RIGHT?
3 A. THAT'S TRUE.
4 Q. AND THEN YOU HUNG UP THE PHONE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND THEN YOU WENT TO THE GATE AND BUZZED?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. AND YOU GOT THE ANSWER?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. SO IT WAS A MINUTE OR LESS --
11 A. IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN, YEAH.
12 Q. -- BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU SAW HIM GO IN AND
13 YOU SPOKE TO HIM ON THE INTERCOM?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WERE THE WHITE MALE AND THE BLACK MALE EVER IN
16 THE DRIVEWAY AT THE SAME TIME BEFORE YOU CAME IN THROUGH
17 THE GATE?
18 A. NOT TOGETHER, NO.
19 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK WALKING
20 UP THE DRIVEWAY, DID THE MALE WHITE REMAIN ON THE GRASSY
21 AREA OF THE ASHFORD SIDE OF THE HOUSE?
22 A. YES, HE DID.
23 Q. HOW MUCH TIME ELAPSED FROM THE MOMENT YOU SAW
24 THE MALE BLACK ENTER THE HOUSE TO THE TIME YOU SAW
25 MR. SIMPSON COME OUT OF THE HOUSE?
26 A. 5 MINUTES.
27 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT?
28 A. I'M GOING TO SAY ABOUT 11:15.
276
1 Q. AND HOW LONG AFTER MR. SIMPSON CAME OUT OF THE
2 DOOR -- HOW MUCH TIME ELAPSED FROM THE POINT HE CAME OUT OF
3 THE DOOR TO THE POINT WHERE YOU LEFT?
4 A. 10 MINUTES.
5 Q. SO YOU THINK HE CAME OUT OF THE HOUSE AT 11:05?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND YOU SAW, THEN, THE MALE BLACK GO INTO THE
8 HOUSE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK?
9 A. I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT.
10 Q. YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK GO INTO THE HOUSE AT
11 11:00 O'CLOCK?
12 A. THE FIRST TIME?
13 Q. RIGHT.
14 A. IN BETWEEN 10:55 AND 11:00 O'CLOCK.
15 Q. AND THERE WAS A 5-MINUTE LAPSE BETWEEN THE TIME
16 YOU SAW THE MALE BLACK GO IN AND THE TIME YOU SAW
17 MR. SIMPSON COME OUT?
18 A. YEAH, AROUND THERE.
19 Q. FROM THE TIME MR. SIMPSON CAME OUT AND THE TIME
20 YOU LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT WAS ABOUT 10 MINUTES?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. AND YOU LEFT AT 11:15?
23 A. ABOUT.
24 I DIDN'T LOOK AT MY WATCH.
25 Q. YOU DIDN'T?
26 A. SO I JUST FIGURED IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN RIGHT
27 AROUND THERE.
28 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET TO THE AIRPORT?
277
1 A. I GOT THERE AT 11:35.
2 Q. WAS THERE HEAVY TRAFFIC?
3 A. NO, THERE WASN'T.
4 Q. LIGHT TRAFFIC?
5 A. VERY LIGHT.
6 Q. WERE YOU DRIVING QUICKLY?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE?
9 A. OFF OF ROCKINGHAM, WE TURNED LEFT, WHICH
10 WOULD BE EASTBOUND ON SUNSET, AND WE HEADED TOWARDS THE
11 405.
12 AT THAT TIME, WHEN I GOT TO THE 405, I GOT IN
13 THE LEFT-HAND LANE TO TURN -- I DON'T KNOW THE STREETS --
14 TO TURN LEFT, AND HE TOLD ME, "YOU CAN GET ON THE FREEWAY
15 ON THE OTHER SIDE."
16 SO I WENT TO MAKE A RIGHT-HAND TURN AND WHERE
17 THE FREEWAY ENTRANCE WAS FOR THE 405 SOUTHBOUND. I DIDN'T
18 CATCH IT. I MISSED IT AND I WENT DOWN A SIDE STREET THAT
19 RUNS PARALLEL WITH THE 405.
20 AND HE SAYS, "YOU CAN JUST TAKE THIS STREET ALL
21 THE WAY DOWN AND THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ON RAMP JUST A MILE
22 DOWN OR SO."
23 AND THEN AT THAT TIME I GOT OFF THE 405, TOOK
24 THE 405 SOUTH TO SEPULVEDA AND FROM SEPULVEDA TO THE
25 AIRPORT.
26 Q. DID YOU SHAKE HANDS WITH MR. SIMPSON AT ANY
27 POINT?
28 A. YES, I DID.
278
1 Q. AND YOU SHOOK WHICH HAND?
2 A. RIGHT HAND.
3 Q. DID YOU NOTICE ANY INJURY TO MR. SIMPSON'S
4 HANDS?
5 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
6 Q. WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING LIKE IN FRONT OF THE
7 HOUSE?
8 A. AT WHAT TIME?
9 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST PULLED IN.
10 WHEN YOU FIRST PULLED UP TO THE GATE ON THE
11 ASHFORD SIDE, WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING LIKE?
12 A. IT WAS -- THE FRONT PORCH WAS FAIRLY LIT PRETTY
13 GOOD, BUT THE REST OF THE HOUSE IS DARK.
14 Q. AND THE DRIVEWAY?
15 A. IT'S DARK.
16 Q. IT WAS DARK?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. AND THE AREA OF -- FROM THE GARAGE FORWARD,
19 NO.
20 THE AREA FROM THE GARAGE, THE POINT OF THE
21 GARAGE THAT IS CLOSEST TO THE ASHFORD SIDE, THE ASHFORD
22 STREET SIGN -- SIGN AND BELOW THAT, FROM THAT POINT AND
23 BELOW ON THE DIAGRAM, WAS THAT ALL DARK?
24 A. YOU MEAN FROM HERE DOWN?
25 Q. RIGHT.
26 A. YES, THAT'S PRETTY DARK.
27 MS. CLARK: WHEN THE WITNESS SAID, "FROM HERE DOWN,"
28 HE GESTURED FROM THE GARAGE AREA, THE POINT WE HAVE
279
1 INDICATED STRAIGHT DOWN THE DRIVEWAY TO THE ROCKINGHAM
2 SIDE.
3 Q. WOULD YOU ALSO SAY THE AREA FROM THE GARAGE
4 DOWN TO THE BOTTOM LINE OF THAT DIAGRAM, AT THE BOTTOM OF
5 THE DIAGRAM AS YOU FACE IT, IT WAS ALSO DARK?
6 A. YES, IT WAS.
7 THERE WAS ONE MORE LIGHT ABOVE THE GARAGE, I'M
8 PRETTY SURE, BUT IT DIDN'T LIGHT THAT EVER.
9 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "ABOVE," WHERE ABOVE THE GARAGE
10 WAS IT?
11 A. I THINK IT WAS HANGING FROM THE ROOF AREA ABOVE
12 THE GARAGE DOOR.
13 Q. AND IT DIDN'T OFFER MUCH LIGHT?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. WHAT AREA DID IT LIGHT?
16 A. OH, IT WAS JUST A RADIUS OF 10, 15 FEET FROM
17 THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE.
18 IT WASN'T VERY MUCH.
19 Q. SO IT ONLY LIT UP THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE?
20 A. YEAH, JUST THE FRONT DOOR, PRETTY MUCH.
21 Q. SO IF SOMEBODY -- SO COULD SOMEONE WALK IN
22 FRONT OF THE GARAGE OUTSIDE OF THAT RADIUS THERE OF LIGHT
23 AND BE IN DARKNESS WHERE I'M GESTURING HERE IN FRONT OF THE
24 GARAGE AREA?
25 A. YES; THAT'S RIGHT.
26 MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER.
27 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
28 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
280
1
2 (SHORT PAUSE.)
3
4 Q. BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER MALE BLACKS
5 AT THE RESIDENCE THERE THAT NIGHT?
6 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
7 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER MALE BLACKS ON THE
8 PREMISES AT 360 ROCKINGHAM THAT NIGHT?
9 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
10 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "DARK CLOTHING," DO YOU MEAN
11 BLACK IN COLOR?
12 A. I CAN'T POSITIVELY SAY, "BLACK." BUT IT WAS A
13 DARK COLOR.
14 IT COULD HAVE BEEN DARK BROWN OR DARK BLUE.
15 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "JEANS" --
16 A. IT COULD HAVE BEEN DARK JEANS.
17 Q. THE JEANS THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON COME OUT OF
18 THE HOUSE IN, WERE THOSE DARK BLUE?
19 A. NO, THEY WERE LIGHTER.
20 THEY WERE MORE OF A STONE WASHED.
21 Q. SO THEY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THOSE JEANS?
22 A. NO. I WOULDN'T THINK SO, NO.
23 Q. THEY WERE DARKER THAN THAT?
24 A. YES.
25 MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER.
26 THE FOREPERSON: MR. PARK, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE
27 LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
28 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
281
1 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
2 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
3 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
4 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
5 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
6 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
7 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
8 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
9 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
10 YOU.
11 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
12 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
13 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
14 YOU ARE EXCUSED
15
16 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
17 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
18
19 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS FOR
20 5 MINUTES.
21 THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED
22 REGARDING DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
23 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW ADMONISHMENT.
24
25 (AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)
26 -O0O-
27
28
282
1 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
2 MADAME SECRETARY?
3 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE SAME
4 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
5 NOW PRESENT.
6 THE FOREPERSON: INVESTIGATING OFFICER TOM LANGE,
7 PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
8 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
9 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
10 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
11 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
12 THE WITNESS: I DO.
13 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
14 OFFICER LANGE, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
15 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
16 THE WITNESS: TOM LANGE.
17 L-A-N-G-E.
18 THE FOREPERSON: YOUR FULL NAME, SIR?
19 THE WITNESS: I GO BY OTHER NAMES.
20 I ALSO GO BY FREDERICK LANGE. I'M KNOWN AS
21 TOM. FREDERICK OR TOM LANGE.
22
23 TOM LANGE,
24 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
25 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
26
27
28
283
1 E X A M I N A T I O N
2 BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q. SIR, COULD YOU PLEASE TELL THIS JURY WHAT YOU
4 DO FOR A LIVING.
5 A. POLICE DETECTIVE FOR THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES,
6 ASSIGNED TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION.
7 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO ASSIGNED?
8 A. TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION SINCE 1978.
9 I HAVE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER FOR 27 YEARS.
10 Q. HOW MANY HOMICIDE CASES HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED,
11 SIR?
12 A. I HAVE EITHER DIRECTLY INVESTIGATED OR BEEN
13 INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATION OF IN EXCESS OF 300 HOMICIDE
14 INVESTIGATIONS.
15 Q. IS THAT ALL DONE IN THE COURSE OF YOUR WORK IN
16 ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION?
17 A. NO.
18 I HAVE PRIOR HOMICIDE AT CENTRAL HOMICIDE
19 DIVISION, L.A.P.D.
20 Q. NOW, IS ROBBERY/HOMICIDE A SPECIALIZED UNIT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. TELL US WHAT IT SPECIALIZES IN.
23 A. THE HOMICIDE SPECIAL UNIT OF ROBBERY/HOMICIDE
24 DIVISION HANDLES HIGH-PROFILE CASES, BASICALLY
25 TIME-CONSUMING CASES, CASES THAT WOULD ENTAIL A GREAT DEAL
26 OF TRAVEL, PERHAPS, OR INTENSIVE INVESTIGATION WHEREIN WE
27 ARE AFFORDED THE TIME TO HANDLE THOSE THINGS AND OTHER
28 DETECTIVES AREN'T.
284
1 Q. SO YOU COME IN THE MORE COMPLEX CASES THAT
2 REQUIRE MORE INVESTIGATIVE EFFORTS?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WOULD THAT INCLUDE ALSO MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL
5 HOMICIDES THAT INCLUDE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY, MORE THAN ONE
6 LOCATION?
7 A. VERY POSSIBLY.
8 Q. DID YOU AT SOME POINT BECOME ASSIGNED TO BE THE
9 INVESTIGATING OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE CASE CONCERNING THE
10 SUSPECT, MR. ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHEN WERE YOU ASSIGNED TO THAT?
13 A. I WAS ASSIGNED ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 13, 1994.
14 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME YOU WERE NOTIFIED TO
15 APPEAR AT THE SCENE?
16 A. I WAS NOTIFIED AT HOME AT APPROXIMATELY
17 3:00 O'CLOCK A.M. ON JUNE 13.
18 Q. BASED ON THE CALL YOU RECEIVED, WHERE DID YOU
19 GO?
20 A. I RESPONDED TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE IN THE
21 WEST LOS ANGELES AREA.
22 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET THERE?
23 A. I GOT THERE AT APPROXIMATELY 4:30 A.M.
24 Q. BY THE TIME YOU GOT THERE, SIR, WERE OTHER
25 OFFICERS ALREADY PRESENT?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WAS THERE SOME MANNER IN WHICH THE SCENE WAS
28 BEING SECURED?
285
1 A. YES.
2 THE SCENE WAS SECURED BY YELLOW POLICE LINE
3 TAPE AS WELL AS UNIFORMED PATROL OFFICERS AND DETECTIVES
4 FROM THE WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION.
5 Q. NO ONE WAS ALLOWED IN THE CRIME SCENE.
6 IS THAT CORRECT?
7 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
8 Q. IS THAT STANDARD PROCEDURE, SIR, THAT THE
9 INITIAL OFFICERS WILL SECURE A CRIME SCENE UNTIL THE
10 INVESTIGATING OR HANDLING DETECTIVE APPEARS ON THE SCENE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. SO YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE ALLOWED INSIDE TO VIEW
13 THE EVIDENCE AND VIEW THE VICTIMS?
14 A. MY PARTNER AND MYSELF.
15 Q. AND YOUR PARTNER WAS?
16 A. PHILLIP VANNATTER.
17 Q. NOW, WERE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN AT YOUR DIRECTION
18 AT THE CRIME SCENE TO DETECT WHAT IT WAS YOU SAW?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. I'M SHOWING YOU NOW THE EXHIBIT MARKED
21 PEOPLE'S 26.
22 DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT I'M SHOWING YOU HERE?
23 A. YES.
24 THESE ARE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE FRONT OF THE
25 RESIDENCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, THE CRIME SCENE, AND PICTURED
26 IN -C, -D, -E AND -F IS VICTIM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
27 Q. NOW, IS THAT THE CRIME SCENE AS YOU FOUND IT AS
28 YOU APPEARED?
286
1 A. YES.
2 Q. THE WALKWAY THAT'S DEPICTED IN -A, IS THAT THE
3 WALKWAY PERPENDICULAR TO THE PUBLIC WALKWAY AREA?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. CAN YOU SEE IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS WHAT APPEAR TO
6 BE PAW PRINTS?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. YOU WERE THERE, SIR.
9 WILL YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE TO US WHAT EXACTLY IT
10 WAS YOU SAW AND LET US KNOW WHERE THE PAW PRINTS WENT TO
11 AND FROM, IF YOU COULD TELL WHILE YOU WERE THERE.
12 A. YES.
13 IT APPEARED TO BE AN ANIMAL, PERHAPS A DOG,
14 THAT HAD WALKED THROUGH THE BLOOD WITH THESE PAW PRINTS
15 THAT ARE DEPICTED HERE, WHICH IS EAST OF THE LOCATION, EAST
16 OF WHERE THE BODY WAS FOUND.
17 IT WAS LATER DETERMINED THAT THE PAW PRINTS
18 BELONGS TO THE PET DOG OF VICTIM SIMPSON, AND THE ANIMAL
19 HAD WALKED EASTWARD FROM THE LOCATION OF THE VICTIM DOWN
20 THE WALKWAY TO THE SIDEWALK AND THEN SOUTHBOUND ON THE
21 WALKWAY FROM THE LOCATION.
22 THAT ANIMAL WAS SUBSEQUENTLY PICKED UP BY
23 NEIGHBORS, AND A LEASH WAS PUT ON THE ANIMAL AND THE ANIMAL
24 EVENTUALLY -- THEY TOOK THE ANIMAL BACK TO THIS LOCATION
25 AND EVENTUALLY DISCOVERED THE BODIES.
26 LIKE I SAID, LOOKING IN THIS DIRECTION IS WEST;
27 AND, OF COURSE, TO YOUR LEFT WOULD BE SOUTH; TO THE RIGHT
28 WOULD BE TO THE NORTH.
287
1 AND, ONCE AGAIN, THE PAW PRINTS LED DOWN THE
2 SIDEWALK IN A SOUTHERLY DIRECTION.
3 WHEN THE DOG WAS LEASHED BY THE WITNESSES, THEY
4 DID OBSERVE WHAT APPEARED TO BE FRESH BLOOD ON THE PAWS OF
5 THE ANIMAL.
6 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU APPROACHED -- WHY DON'T YOU
7 DESCRIBE FOR US, SIR, THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU FOUND THE
8 VICTIM, THE FEMALE DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS -D, -E AND
9 -F.
10 A. IN PHOTOGRAPH -D, THIS IS LOOKING IN A WESTERLY
11 DIRECTION. THIS IS AT THE FOOT OF THE STEPS LEADING DOWN
12 FROM THE FRONT ENTRANCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
13 YOU SEE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON LYING ON HER LEFT
14 SIDE. SHE IS BAREFOOT, SHE IS WEARING A BLACK SHIFT, A
15 SHAPELESS SHIFT.
16 HER FEET ARE BENEATH THE OPEN GATE HERE, THE
17 HEAD IS IN MORE OR LESS A NORTH-BY-NORTHEASTERLY
18 DIRECTION.
19 SHE IS IN A LARGE POOL OF BLOOD.
20 AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME, WE COULD NOT
21 DETERMINE THE EXACT WOUNDS, BUT IT APPEARED IT WAS SOME
22 KIND OF A HEAD OR UPPER-TORSO BODY WOUND.
23 THERE WAS AN EXTREME AMOUNT OF BLOOD.
24 AT THIS TIME, IT APPEARED THAT THE ATTACK OF
25 HER AND HER DEATH OCCURRED RIGHT WHERE SHE WAS FOUND.
26 Q. IN OTHER WORDS, SIR, YOU FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF
27 DRAG MARKS?
28 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
288
1 THE ONLY EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE OR AN ATTACK IS
2 WHERE THE BODY WAS FOUND.
3 THE HANDS, AS YOU CAN SEE IN -E, ARE
4 SOMEWHAT -- THE FINGERS ARE CLOSED.
5 SUBSEQUENTLY, THERE WAS ONE WHAT WE CALL A
6 DEFENSE WOUND LOCATED ON HER HAND, INDICATING THE POSSIBLE
7 WARDING OFF OF A BLOW PROBABLY WITH A SHARP INSTRUMENT.
8 WHEN SHE WAS REMOVED LATER THAT MORNING AT
9 APPROXIMATELY 10:30, A QUARTER TO 11 -- I WOULD HAVE TO
10 CHECK MY NOTES -- SHE WAS IN FULL RIGOR, OR FULL RIGOR
11 MORTIS, INDICATING DEATH HAD OCCURRED PROBABLY 12, 16 HOURS
12 PRIOR.
13 NOW, -F IS MORE OF A CLOSE-UP. THIS PHOTOGRAPH
14 IS TAKEN AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE CORONER'S REPRESENTATIVES
15 WHEN THE VICTIM WAS REMOVED FROM THIS LOCATION AND PLACED
16 ON A PLASTIC SHEET.
17 THE WOUND TO THE NECK IS EVIDENCED HERE, A
18 LARGE GAPING WOUND. AND AT THAT TIME IT WOULD CERTAINLY
19 APPEAR THAT'S WHERE THE MAJORITY OF THE BLOOD WOULD HAVE
20 COME FROM.
21 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE HER FACE, WERE YOU NOT,
22 SIR?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND YOU SECURED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THESE
25 PROCEEDINGS A CERTIFIED COPY OF THE DRIVER'S LICENSE OF
26 NICOLE BROWN?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. SHOWING YOU AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS
289
1 PEOPLE'S 25.
2 CAN YOU TELL ME, SIR, IF THAT PHOTOGRAPH
3 APPEARS TO DEPICTED THE VICTIM IN PHOTOGRAPH -F.
4 A. YES, IT DOES.
5 THAT'S NICOLE BROWN.
6 Q. DID YOU ALSO ATTEND THE AUTOPSIES PERFORMED BY
7 DR. GOLDEN IN THIS CASE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. THE FEMALE VICTIM THAT HE AUTOPSIED IN THIS
10 CASE THAT YOU OBSERVED, WAS THAT NICOLE BROWN AS DEPICTED
11 IN THE D.M.V. PHOTOGRAPH THAT'S CERTIFIED IN FRONT OF YOU?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. THAT IS THE SAME VICTIM DEPICTED IN
14 PHOTOGRAPH -F?
15 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
16 Q. HAVE YOU COMPLETED YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE BODY
17 OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
18 A. THERE ARE OTHER PARTICULARS, IF YOU ARE
19 INTERESTED.
20 Q. YES.
21 A. OKAY.
22 WE FOUND HER HEAD -- SHE'S LYING PARTIALLY ON
23 HER LEFT SIDE WITH THE HEAD IN A NORTH-BY-NORTHEAST
24 DIRECTION.
25 THE LEGS WERE BENT AT THE KNEES AT
26 APPROXIMATELY A 90-DEGREE ANGLE.
27 THE INNER LEFT-UPPER ANKLE WAS BELOW THE RUNG,
28 THE LOWER RUNG OF THE GATE.
290
1 THIS IS THE OPEN GATE THAT SWINGS OUT; THIS IS
2 A GATE THAT IS STATIONERY.
3 HER FEET WERE BENEATH THIS GATE. IT'S NOT
4 DEPICTED HERE REAL WELL, BUT HER FEET ARE BELOW THE LOWER
5 RUNG OF THIS FIXED GATE.
6 HER LEFT ARM IS BENT AT THE ELBOW, PALM UP;
7 LEFT HAND WAS CLUTCHED.
8 SHE WAS WEARING AT LEAST TWO RINGS AT THE TIME.
9 THERE WAS A WRIST WATCH ON HER LEFT WRIST.
10 HER RIGHT ARM WAS BENT AT THE ELBOW
11 APPROXIMATELY 170 DEGREES WITH THE PALM UP.
12 THE HAND WAS RESTING UNDER THE CHIN AREA. THE
13 BODY WOULD BE IN A PARTIAL FETAL POSITION.
14 ONCE AGAIN, SHE HAD ON A BLACK COTTON
15 SHIFT-TYPE DRESS WITH A STRAP THAT WENT AROUND THE NECK.
16 SHE WAS WEARING NO SHOES.
17 THERE WERE BLOOD SMEARS ON HER UPPER-RIGHT
18 CALF, OUTER-RIGHT THIGH AND INNER-LEFT THIGH AS WELL AS THE
19 KNEE AREA, AND THERE WAS WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD SMEARS
20 ON THE INNER-LEFT FOREARM.
21 THE BOTTOM OF HER RIGHT ANKLE WAS RESTING
22 AGAINST THE POWER OUTLET THAT IS NOT VISIBLE HERE BUT THAT
23 IS BEHIND AND SOUTH OF THE FIXED GATE, THE FOOT PROTRUDING
24 OUT AND RESTING AGAINST IT.
25 THERE WAS BLOOD SMEARED ON HER LEFT HAND, BLOOD
26 SMEARED ON THE OUTER PART OF HER RIGHT ARM.
27 I OBSERVED BLOOD DROPLETS ON HER UPPER BACK.
28 ALL OF HER FINGERNAILS IN HER LEFT-HAND
291
1 APPEARED TO BE INTACT.
2 THE BLOOD DROPLETS ON HER BACK APPEARED TO
3 TRAIL OUT IN ALL DIRECTIONS, INDICATING THAT THE SOURCE
4 PERHAPS CAME FROM ON TOP OF HER AND NOT FROM AN ANGLE.
5 BUT THIS IS SUBJECT TO VARIOUS OTHER THINGS, SO
6 IT'S UNSURE JUST HOW THAT BLOOD ENDED UP IN THE POSITION
7 THAT IT DID.
8 THE WALKWAY, JUST FOR YOUR EDIFICATION, IS
9 3 FEET 11 INCHES IN WIDTH.
10 THE DISTANCE FROM THE FRONT OF THE SIDEWALK
11 HERE, THE PARKWAY WHERE THERE IS A LARGE ROYAL PALM TREE,
12 TO THE FEET OF THE VICTIM IS 23 FEET 6 INCHES.
13 Q. DOES THAT MEAN FROM THE SIDEWALK, THE PART OF
14 THE SIDEWALK THAT MEETS WITH THE STREET OR THE PART OF THE
15 SIDEWALK THAT MEETS WITH THE WALKWAY LEADING UP TO THE
16 BODIES?
17 A. THE SIDEWALK DEPICTED HERE.
18 Q. IN PHOTOGRAPH -B?
19 A. IN PHOTOGRAPH -B.
20 JUST THIS SIDE OF THAT IS THE PARKWAY WHERE
21 THERE IS A LARGE ROYAL PALM, AND FROM THAT PARKWAY ON THIS
22 SIDE TO THE FEET OF THIS VICTIM, 23 FEET 6 INCHES.
23 Q. WHEN YOU GESTURED, "THE PARKWAY," YOU GESTURED
24 BELOW PHOTOGRAPH -B. IT WOULD BE OFF THE PHOTOGRAPH, IN
25 OTHER WORDS?
26 A. OFF THE PHOTOGRAPH.
27 Q. THAT'S A GRASSY AREA YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?
28 A. A GRASSY PARKWAY AREA, THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
292
1 NOW, ONCE AGAIN, JUST FOR EDIFICATION, THIS IS
2 IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION. AND, AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED,
3 23 FEET 6 INCHES TO THE VICTIM.
4 IT IS 38 FEET 10 INCHES FROM THIS SAME AREA TO
5 THE END OF THE BUILDING, THE EDGE OF THE COMPLEX. THAT'S
6 WHERE THE BUILDING BEGINS.
7 Q. YOU MEAN UP THE STAIRS?
8 A. UP THE STAIRS AND IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION,
9 38 FEET 10 INCHES TO THE RESIDENCE ITSELF.
10 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE RESIDENCE ITSELF," ARE YOU
11 TALKING ABOUT THE WALL?
12 A. THE STRUCTURE.
13 Q. TO THE WALL?
14 A. YES, THE FIRST FORM OF THE STRUCTURE.
15 THAT LEADS TO THE FRONT ENTRANCE.
16 Q. SIR, WHEN YOU ARRIVED, CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU
17 NOTICED THE LIGHTING IN THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING THERE.
18 WAS THERE ANY?
19 A. THERE WAS A PORCH LIGHT UP THE PORCH.
20 Q. UP ON THE LANDING?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DOES THAT ILLUMINATE THE WALKWAY?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IN ANY EFFECTIVE WAY?
25 A. IT WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED IT SOME WAY.
26 THE LIGHTING I WOULDN'T SAY WAS EXCELLENT, BUT
27 IT WAS FAR FROM BEING DARK.
28 IT WAS ILLUMINATED.
293
1 Q. THAT WAS THE CONDITION YOU FOUND IT IN?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHICH PORCH LIGHT WAS ON, IF YOU KNOW?
4 A. THE FRONT PORCH LIGHT HERE -- IT'S NOT DEPICTED
5 HERE. BUT, AGAIN, UP THE WALKWAY TOWARDS THE FRONT
6 ENTRANCE.
7 Q. WAS THERE ANY LIGHT ON AT THE GATE AREA?
8 A. THERE WAS NO DIRECT LIGHT AT THE GATE BUT
9 THERE WAS SOME LIGHT FROM THE PORCH LIGHT, LIGHTING THIS
10 AREA UP.
11 Q. HOW FAR DOWN THE LANDING AREA IS THAT PORCH
12 LIGHT?
13 A. THE PORCH LIGHT IS AT THE DOOR.
14 Q. THE FRONT DOOR?
15 A. THE FRONT DOOR. IT'S ABOVE THE FRONT DOOR.
16 SO FROM THE VICTIM TO THE LIGHT WOULD BE
17 APPROXIMATELY 18 TO 20 FEET.
18 Q. IF WE COULD, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU SOME
19 PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WOULD BE MOVING TO THE RIGHT OF THE VICTIM
20 DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 1.
21 COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT YOU ARE SHOWING
22 IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
23 A. PHOTOGRAPH -A DEPICTS VICTIM 2, RONALD
24 GOLDMAN.
25 THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS SHOT IN A
26 NORTH-BY-NORTHWESTERLY DIRECTION.
27 IF YOU LOOK RIGHT BELOW PHOTOGRAPH -A IN THIS
28 AREA, OVER THE PHOTOGRAPH WOULD BE THE LOCATION WHERE
294
1 VICTIM NO. 1 WAS LOCATED.
2 Q. DETECTIVE LANGE, I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT.
3 LET ME JUST ASK YOU ONE QUESTION HERE TO ORIENT
4 THE JURORS.
5 THIS WALL RIGHT HERE SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH -D OF
6 PEOPLE'S 1 --
7 A. YES.
8 Q. -- IS THAT THE SAME WALL SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH
9 -A -- THIS HAS NOT BEEN MARKED.
10 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER IS A SERIES OF
11 PHOTOGRAPHS -A THROUGH -F, PEOPLE'S 27.
12 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
13 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 27.)
14 Q. ON PEOPLE'S 27, IS THAT THE SAME WALL SHOWN IN
15 THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF PHOTOGRAPH -A ON PEOPLE'S 27?
16 A. YES, IT IS.
17 Q. I'M SORRY.
18 PLEASE CONTINUE.
19 A. GETTING BACK TO VICTIM NO. 2, GOLDMAN.
20 THIS VICTIM WAS LYING JUST TO THE WEST AND
21 NORTH OF VICTIM 1.
22 WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GO ON AND DESCRIBE HOW I
23 FOUND HIM?
24 Q. IF YOU COULD.
25 DESCRIBE, FIRST OF ALL, THE DISTANCE BETWEEN
26 THEM AND THE EVIDENCE FOUND NEAR THE BODY.
27 A. THE TOTAL DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS A TOTAL
28 OF 10 FEET 1 INCH.
295
1 VICTIM 2 IS LYING IN AN AREA THAT IS 6 FEET IN
2 WIDTH.
3 THE HEAD IS LYING PARTIALLY, AS IS THE UPPER
4 TORSO, ON THE RIGHT SIDE; AND THE HEAD IS LYING, AS
5 DEPICTED IN PHOTO -B, AGAINST A TREE TRUNK IN THAT LITTLE
6 ALCOVE THERE.
7 AGAIN, HE'S LYING PARTIALLY ON HIS RIGHT SIDE,
8 PARTIALLY BENT AT THE TORSO AND THE WAIST.
9 THE HEAD IS LYING ON THE RIGHT SIDE IN A
10 WESTERLY DIRECTION.
11 THE FEET ARE IN A SOUTH EASTERLY DIRECTION AND
12 HIS EYES WERE OPEN.
13 THE OUTER GARMENT IS A LONG-SLEEVED PLAID
14 COTTON TYPE SHIRT THAT'S BEEN PULLED UP OVER THE SHOULDERS,
15 AS DEPICTED IN PHOTO -B.
16 HIS RIGHT ARM WAS BENT AT THE ELBOW IN
17 APPROXIMATELY A 45-DEGREE ANGLE WITH THE FINGERS OPEN AND
18 THE PALMS DOWN.
19 HE HAD ON WHITE CLOTH ATHLETIC BOOTS, AS
20 PICTURED IN -B, WEARING BLUE LEVIS, NO BELT.
21 THE CLOTHING WAS BLOOD SOAKED AND BLOOD
22 SMEARED.
23 I OBSERVED --
24 Q. SORRY, SIR.
25 IN -E, YOU SEE THE TOE OF HIS SHOE?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. IS THAT THE TOE OF THE VICTIM, SIR?
28 A. YES.
296
1 THAT IS JUST -- THAT WOULD BE THE LEFT FOOT OF
2 THE VICTIM, AND THIS IS MORE OF A CLOSE-UP OF THIS AREA
3 RIGHT HERE, DEPICTED IN -B.
4 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING
5 TO THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF PHOTOGRAPH -B ON PEOPLE'S 27
6 WHERE THE PORTION OF THE SHOE, THE TOE OF THE SHOE IS
7 OBSCURED BY A PLANT.
8 DID YOU FIND SOME FORM OF IDENTIFICATION ON THE
9 BODY OF THIS VICTIM?
10 A. YES.
11 THE CORONER REMOVED A CALIFORNIA OPERATOR'S
12 LICENSE.
13 Q. IS THAT DEPICTED ON PEOPLE'S 27 ALSO?
14 A. YES, IN PHOTOGRAPH -F.
15 Q. DID THE FACE OF THE VICTIM YOU SAW DEPICTED IN
16 PEOPLE'S 27 APPEAR TO MATCH THE FACE SHOWN ON THE DRIVER'S
17 LICENSE?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. THE DRIVER'S LICENSE IS ISSUED TO WHO?
20 A. A RONALD GOLDMAN.
21 Q. IS THAT THE SAME PERSON AS THE ONE DEPICTED IN
22 PEOPLE'S 24?
23 A. YES, IT IS.
24 Q. DID YOU ALSO ATTEND THE AUTOPSY OF THE PERSON
25 DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 24 AND 27?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND IS THAT THE PERSON KNOWN AS RONALD GOLDMAN?
28 A. YES.
297
1 Q. NOW, DID YOU NOTICE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE NEAR THE
2 VICTIM NEAR RONALD GOLDMAN?
3 A. YES.
4 I NOTICED A DARK BROWN LEATHER GLOVE, A
5 LEFT-HANDED GLOVE, DEPICTED HERE AT THE LEFT FOOT OF THE
6 VICTIM IN PHOTOGRAPH NO -E, PHOTOGRAPH NO. 6.
7 Q. I HAVE A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS MARKED AS
8 PEOPLE'S 26, SIR.
9 PLEASE EXPLAIN TO THE JURY WHAT IS DEPICTED IN
10 THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.
11 A. IN PHOTOGRAPH -A, WE HAVE THE GLOVE THAT I
12 DESCRIBED AT THE FOOT OF THE VICTIM GOLDMAN.
13 THIS GLOVE IS LYING JUST EAST AND SOUTH OF THE
14 FEET OF THE VICTIM.
15 ADJACENT TO IT IS A DARK BLUE SKI CAP.
16 A BLOWUP OF THE GLOVE AND SKI CAP IS SHOWN IN
17 PHOTOGRAPH -B.
18 WE ALSO HAVE A BLOODY -- WHAT APPEARS TO BE A
19 BLOODY HEEL MARK FROM A SHOE IN -A AND -B.
20 PHOTOGRAPH -C IS ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH OF THAT
21 GLOVE AS WELL AS THE SHOE PRINT.
22 PHOTOGRAPH -D IS THE AREA WHERE VICTIM BROWN
23 WAS REMOVED FROM.
24 JUST AFTER SHE WAS REMOVED, IT INDICATES AN
25 EXTREME AMOUNT OF BLOOD, AND IT'S APPARENT TO ME THAT THIS
26 IS MORE THAN LIKELY WHERE SHE DIED.
27 -D IS LOOKING DIRECTLY WEST. TO THE RIGHT OF
28 -D IS WHERE VICTIM GOLDMAN WAS LOCATED.
298
1 BETWEEN VICTIM 1 AND 2, WE HAVE AN ENVELOPE,
2 ITEM 104, DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH THAT CONTAINED A PAIR
3 OF PRESCRIPTION GLASSES.
4 A CLOSER EXAMINATION OF THIS ENVELOPE, ONCE IT
5 WAS TURNED OVER, REVEALED THE NAME OF THE VICTIM, "NICOLE
6 SIMPSON, GLASSES" -- PRESCRIPTION GLASSES FOR NICOLE
7 SIMPSON IN THIS PARTICULAR ENVELOPE.
8 Q. THAT WAS PRINTED ON THE ENVELOPE, SIR?
9 A. PRINTED ON THE ENVELOPE ON THE OUTSIDE, ON THE
10 OTHER SIDE, THE FACE SIDE OF WHAT WE SEE HERE.
11 Q. WAS THE ENVELOPE WHEN YOU FOUND IT, SIR, STILL
12 SEALED?
13 A. YES, IT WAS, BUT PARTIALLY SEALED.
14 ONE COULD PEER INSIDE AT A CERTAIN ANGLE AND
15 SEE THAT THERE DID INDEED APPEAR TO BE GLASSES OF SOME
16 TYPE.
17 THERE IS A CLOSER PHOTOGRAPH OF THAT IN NO. -E.
18 Q. AND IN -F, SIR?
19 A. AND PHOTOGRAPH -F IS ANOTHER CLOSE-UP OF THE
20 ENVELOPE BETWEEN THE TWO VICTIMS.
21 Q. NOW, WERE ALL OF THOSE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE
22 COLLECTED AT YOUR DIRECTION FOR ANALYSIS AND EXAMINATION?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DID YOU ALSO EXAMINE THE STAIRWAY AND THE
25 LANDING LEADING TOWARDS THE BACK OF THE BUILDING AND AWAY
26 FROM THE VICTIMS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. I HAVE A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS, -A THROUGH -F,
299
1 THAT I WOULD ASK BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 28.
2 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
3 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 28.)
4 MS. CLARK: A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS, -A THROUGH -C,
5 PEOPLE'S 29.
6 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
7 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 29.)
8 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WITH RESPECT TO PEOPLE'S 28,
9 SIR, IF YOU CAN PLEASE EXPLAIN TO THE JURY WHAT YOU ARE
10 ATTEMPTING TO SHOW BY HAVING THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN.
11 A. IS THIS 28 HERE?
12 Q. YES, IT IS.
13 A. IN 28, PHOTOGRAPH -A IS LOOKING IN A WESTERLY
14 DIRECTION DOWN THE NORTH WALKWAY, A WALKWAY LOCATED ON THE
15 NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE.
16 DEPICTED JUST TO THE TOP AND THE LEFT IS THE
17 FRONT ENTRANCE OF THE RESIDENCE AFTER ONE WOULD WALK UP
18 THREE STEPS.
19 THIS IS RIGHT ABOVE WHERE THE BODIES WERE
20 LOCATED. THEY WOULD BE ON THE PHOTOGRAPH DOWN BELOW -A.
21 DEPICTED ALSO HERE IS AN OVERALL SHOT FROM
22 FRONT TO REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, AGAIN LOOKING IN A WESTERLY
23 DIRECTION, AND A SERIES OF WHAT APPEAR TO BE BLOODY
24 FOOTPRINTS CAN BE SEEN LEADING IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION AWAY
25 FROM THE BODIES GOING TO THE REAR OF THIS LOCATION.
26 IN PHOTOGRAPH -B, THIS IS A CLOSE-UP OF ITEM
27 112 THAT IS DEPICTED IN -A.
28 THIS IS AN APPARENT BLOOD DROP THAT IS ON THIS
300
1 WALKWAY AWAY FROM AND ABOVE THE BODIES IN THE SAME AREA AS
2 THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS THAT ARE AGAIN MOVING IN A WESTERLY
3 DIRECTION AWAY FROM THE BODIES.
4 113 IS ANOTHER APPARENT BLOOD DROPLET IN
5 PHOTOGRAPH -C.
6 THIS IS AN OVERALL DEPICTION OF -A THAT YOU CAN
7 SEE BELOW THE STEPS LEADING UP TOWARDS THE ENTRANCE AND,
8 AGAIN, ADJACENT TO BLOODY FOOTPRINT MOVING AWAY FROM THE
9 BODIES IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION.
10 ITEM -D IS LOOKING AGAIN IN A WESTERLY
11 DIRECTION. IT'S A STAIRWELL GOING DOWN. IT'S A PART OF
12 THE WALKWAY THAT IS DEPICTED IN -A, OVERALL DEPICTED IN -A,
13 MOVING WESTWARDLY.
14 THIS STAIRWELL IS TOWARDS THE REAR OF THE
15 LOCATION AND WE HAVE, REFERRING TO PHOTOGRAPH -E FOR A
16 MOMENT, WHAT APPEARS TO BE A SECOND BLOOD DROPLET, A
17 CLOSE-UP OF IT, ITEM 114 THAT IS DEPICTED OVERALL IN
18 PHOTOGRAPH -D.
19 IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, WE SEE VARIOUS LETTERS.
20 THESE LETTERS ARE DEPICTING PARTIAL -- WE BELIEVED AT THE
21 TIME TO BE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS LEADING AGAIN AWAY FROM THE
22 BODIES IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION.
23 PHOTOGRAPH -F IS ALSO PART OF THIS WALKWAY AT
24 THE REAR OF THE LOCATION. THIS IS LOOKING IN A WESTERLY
25 DIRECTION.
26 AGAIN, WE SEE OVERALL ITEM 115 ON A STAIRWELL
27 LEADING UP IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION TOWARD THE REAR GATE OF
28 THE RESIDENCE.
301
1 ITEM -D IS A CLOSE-UP OF AN APPARENT BLOOD
2 DROPLET THAT IS OVERALL DEPICTED IN PHOTOGRAPH -F.
3 Q. AND PEOPLE'S 29, SIR, THAT'S JUST TO THE LEFT.
4 A. PEOPLE'S 29 IS, I BELIEVE, THE REAR OF THE
5 RESIDENCE.
6 THE APPARENT BLOOD SPLATTERS OR DROPLETS, IF
7 YOU WILL, IN ITEM 116 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE REAR GATE.
8 Q. SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH -A?
9 A. SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH -A.
10 PHOTOGRAPH -B IS IN THE REAR DRIVEWAY OF THE
11 RESIDENCE IN THE NORTHWEST PORTION OF THE DRIVEWAY ADJACENT
12 TO A REAR ALLEY.
13 THERE ARE CLOSE-UPS, ITEM 117 DEPICTED IN
14 PHOTOGRAPH -C, OF AN APPARENT BLOOD DROPLET.
15 THE CLOSE-UP, AGAIN, IS IN -C; THE OVERALL SHOT
16 IS OF -B.
17 Q. PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU THOUGHT THE
18 SIGNIFICANCE OF THOSE BLOOD DROPS DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 28
19 AND 29 WAS.
20 A. THE SIGNIFICANCE, FIRSTLY, IS THAT THEY ARE
21 APART FROM AND SEPARATE FROM WHERE THE VICTIMS ARE LOCATED
22 AND WHERE THE MAJORITY OF THE BLOOD IS.
23 MORE SIGNIFICANTLY, THE BLOOD DROPLETS APPEARED
24 TO BE AMONG BLOODY FOOTPRINTS LEADING AWAY FROM THE
25 VICTIMS, INDICATING THAT THE DROPLETS WERE MORE THAN LIKELY
26 LEFT SUBSEQUENT TO THE KILLING OF THE TWO VICTIMS, AS WERE
27 THE FOOTPRINTS LEADING AWAY, LEADING ONE TO SPECULATE THAT
28 PERHAPS THE BLOOD DROPLETS WOULD HAVE COME FROM THE
302
1 PERPETRATOR.
2 Q. THE ONE WHO COMMITTED THE KILLINGS?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. THE FACT THAT THESE ARE BLOOD DROPS AND NOT
5 SMEARS, DOES THAT ALSO TELL YOU SOMETHING WITH REGARD TO
6 THE LIKELY ORIGIN OF THE BLOOD NOT BEING THAT OF THE
7 VICTIMS BUT THAT OF THE PERPETRATOR?
8 A. IT WAS APPARENT TO ME THAT A VIOLENT STRUGGLE
9 HAD ENSUED BETWEEN A SUSPECT AND THE TWO VICTIMS, SO
10 VIOLENT A STRUGGLE THAT IT WAS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THE
11 SUSPECT HIMSELF WOULD HAVE BEEN INJURED.
12 IN MY MIND, VIEWING THE DROPLETS, IT WAS
13 ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THEY DID BELONG -- THAT THEY WOULD,
14 IN FACT, BELONG TO THE SUSPECT WHO WAS LEAVING THE SCENE.
15 Q. AS A MATTER OF COMMON SENSE, SIR, IN THE
16 PERPETRATION OF A VIOLENT CRIME IN WHICH A VICTIM'S BLOOD
17 IS SHED, IF THE PERPETRATOR GETS THAT BLOOD ON HIS BODY OR
18 HANDS, IS IT LIKELY TO BE DRIPPING IN THE MANNER YOU SEE IN
19 PEOPLE'S 28 AND 29.
20 A. FROM THE VICTIMS?
21 Q. CORRECT.
22 A. WELL, AGAIN, IT WOULD DEPEND.
23 IF IT WERE FROM THE VICTIMS, IT POSSIBLY WOULD
24 BE FROM A WEAPON OR SOMETHING.
25 BUT THAT'S OPEN TO SPECULATION, I THINK.
26 Q. THE AREA THAT IS BEHIND -- THE AREA THAT IS
27 DIRECTLY BEHIND THE BODY OF NICOLE SIMPSON APPEARS TO BE
28 THREE STAIRS.
303
1 IT'S NOT SHOWN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH NEXT TO YOU,
2 BUT I'M JUST ASKING -- AND I WILL PUT THE PHOTOGRAPHS UP SO
3 YOU CAN REFER TO IT -- I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO DESCRIBE
4 WHAT THE BUILDING LOOKS LIKE PAST THE AREA THAT YOU CAN SEE
5 IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS, PAST THE REFERENCE POINT, THE BEGINNING
6 REFERENCE POINT BEING PHOTOGRAPH -B AND -D.
7 AFTER THESE THREE STAIRS, DESCRIBE THE
8 STRUCTURE FOR US.
9 A. OKAY.
10 -B IS LOOKING IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION.
11 AFTER THESE STAIRS LEADING UP, WE HAVE A FLAT
12 AREA LEADING UP TO THE RESIDENCE ITSELF.
13 ABOVE THAT IS ANOTHER SERIES OF, I BELIEVE, TWO
14 OR THREE STEPS LEADING UP TO THE FRONT ENTRANCE, AND THE
15 WALKWAY CONTINUES ALONG THE NORTH SIDE IN A WESTERLY
16 DIRECTION OF THE BUILDING.
17 Q. SO THAT WALKWAY CONTINUES STRAIGHT BACK?
18 A. ALL THE WAY ALONG THE STRUCTURE TO THE REAR
19 ALLEY, TO THE GATES DEPICTED IN 29, I BELIEVE.
20 Q. THE FRONT DOOR THAT YOU EARLIER DESCRIBED, IS
21 THAT BEFORE OR AFTER THE SECOND SET OF STAIRS GOING UP?
22 A. IT IS JUST ABOVE IT, JUST AFTER.
23 Q. SO THAT FRONT DOOR IS UP ON A SECOND LANDING?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IS THAT WHERE THE PORCH LIGHT WAS?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AFTER THAT LANDING, YOU GO DOWN IN THE SAME
28 MANNER YOU GO UP?
304
1 A. AFTER AWHILE.
2 YOU MOVE ALONG THE BUILDING FOR SEVERAL FEET,
3 AND THEN THERE IS A RECESSED AREA, AS DEPICTED PREVIOUSLY.
4 THE STAIRWELL GOES DOWN TO A WASHROOM AREA AND
5 THEN UP AGAIN TO THE REAR OF THE BUILDING.
6 Q. AND WHAT IS AT THE REAR OF THE BUILDING?
7 IS THERE A PARKING AREA THERE?
8 A. THERE IS A GARAGE, THE GARAGE THAT GOES BENEATH
9 THE STRUCTURE, A TWO-CAR GARAGE.
10 THERE IS ALSO A DRIVEWAY AREA BEFORE THE
11 GARAGE, AND THAT LEADS OUT ON TO THE REAR ALLEY.
12 Q. DID YOU OBSERVE ANY CARS TO BE PARKED IN THE
13 GARAGE AREA IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO NICOLE SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
14 A. YES.
15 THERE WAS A SPORTS CAR UNDERNEATH IN THE GARAGE
16 AND A CHEROKEE IN THE DRIVEWAY HEADED IN AN EASTERLY
17 DIRECTION, NOT IN THE GARAGE BUT IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE
18 RESIDENCE.
19 Q. WAS THERE ROOM IN THE GARAGE OR IN THE DRIVEWAY
20 FOR ANOTHER CAR TO PULL UP?
21 A. THERE WAS QUITE A BIT OF SPORTING EQUIPMENT IN
22 THE GARAGE.
23 IF THAT HAD BEEN REMOVED, A CAR COULD HAVE BEEN
24 PLACED IN THE GARAGE. BUT THERE WERE AN AWFUL LOT OF
25 THINGS TO PREVENT THAT.
26 THERE WAS ROOM IN THE DRIVEWAY ADJACENT TO THE
27 CHEROKEE FOR ANOTHER VEHICLE, YES.
28 Q. NOW, SIR, WHEN YOU COMPLETED YOUR EXAMINATION
305
1 OF THE CRIME SCENE, DID YOU DIRECT OTHER DETECTIVES TO GO
2 SOMEWHERE?
3 A. YES.
4 WE DIRECTED OUR INVESTIGATING TEAM -- SOME
5 PERSONS ALREADY RESPONDED, BUT WE DIRECTED OUR CRIMINALISTS
6 AND PHOTOGRAPHERS TO 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM IN BRENTWOOD,
7 APPROXIMATELY 2 MILES AWAY.
8 Q. WHAT WERE YOUR INSTRUCTIONS TO THEM?
9 A. THE INSTRUCTIONS WERE THAT THE ADDRESS AT
10 360 WAS AN EXTENSION OF OUR CRIME SCENE AND THAT A SEARCH
11 WARRANT HAD BEEN SECURED AND THAT THAT LOCATION WAS INDEED
12 AN EXTENSION OF OUR CRIME SCENE AND WE WOULD BE CONTINUING
13 THE CRIME SCENE AT THAT LOCATION.
14 Q. BEFORE YOU DETERMINED IT WAS AN EXTENSION OF
15 YOUR CRIME SCENE, DID YOU DETERMINE TO MAKE NOTIFICATION TO
16 THE PERSON LIVING AT THAT ADDRESS?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. BEFORE YOU DISCOVERED IT AS PART OF YOUR CRIME
19 SCENE --
20 A. YES.
21 Q. -- DID YOU DISPATCH OTHERS TO GO TO THAT SCENE
22 TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION?
23 A. MY PARTNER AND I AND TWO OTHER DETECTIVES
24 INITIALLY WENT TO THAT LOCATION.
25 Q. DID YOU DIRECT THAT THE CRIMINALIST RECOVER ALL
26 OF THE EVIDENCE, INCLUDING THE BLOOD DROPS THAT YOU HAVE
27 DESCRIBED IN PEOPLE'S 28 AND 29, ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT
28 YOU HAVE DESCRIBED TO US?
306
1 A. YES.
2 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
3 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
4 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
5 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
6 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
7 MR. WHITE: WELL, WHY DON'T WE HOLD THE QUESTIONS
8 OVER.
9 MS. CLARK: WE MIGHT ABLE TO COMPLETE WITH THIS
10 WITNESS.
11
12 (SHORT PAUSE.)
13
14 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DO YOU KNOW OF ANY WAY TO
15 DETERMINE THE AGE OF BLOOD DROPS?
16 A. I'M SORRY. WHAT?
17 DO I KNOW A WAY TO DETERMINE THE AGE?
18 Q. RIGHT.
19 A. NO.
20 Q. DID YOU FIND ANY BLOOD DROPS IN THE ALLEYWAY
21 RUNG BEHIND THE HOUSE?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. WAS THE FRONT DOOR TO NICOLE'S SIMPSON'S HOUSE
24 OPEN OR CLOSED?
25 A. IT WAS OPEN.
26 Q. AJAR?
27 A. WHEN I WAS THERE, IT WAS ENTIRELY OPEN, FULL.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER IT HAD BEEN OPENED BY A
307
1 POLICE OFFICER PRIOR TO YOUR ARRIVAL?
2 A. I BELIEVE MY INFORMATION WAS THAT IT WAS OPEN
3 UPON THE ARRIVAL OF THE POLICE.
4 Q. THE WAY YOU FOUND IT IS THE WAY IT WAS?
5 A. THAT WAS MY INFORMATION.
6 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT FROM PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE,
7 THOUGH?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. SIR, ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO TELL US WHETHER
10 GLOVES SOILED WITH BLOOD CAN ALLOW FOR FINGERPRINTS TO BE
11 LIFTED FROM THEM?
12 ARE YOU A CRIMINALIST, SIR?
13 A. NO. I'M NOT AN EXPERT.
14 I'M NOT A CRIMINALIST OR LATENT PRINT EXPERT.
15 Q. DID YOU FIND -- YOU DID SEARCH THE HOUSE OF
16 NICOLE SIMPSON; CORRECT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE OR
19 BLOOD STAINS IN THAT HOUSE?
20 A. THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE AND NO
21 EVIDENCE OF ANY BLOOD STAINS WITHIN THE HOUSE.
22 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO DISCERN ANY BLOOD SPRAY ON THE
23 WALLS OF THE BUILDING OR ON THE PLANTS SURROUNDING THE
24 BODY?
25 A. YES.
26 THERE WERE -- AS DEPICTED HERE IN THE INITIAL
27 SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS, THERE WERE VARIOUS BLOOD SPLATTERS
28 AND SMEARS ON THE PLANTS AROUND BOTH VICTIMS.
308
1 Q. THE WALKWAY THAT LEADS DOWN TO THE SIDEWALK AND
2 THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, SIR, DID IT
3 SLOPE DOWNWARD IN ANY WAY OR WAS IT LEVEL?
4 A. IT APPEARED TO BE A SLIGHT SLOPING DOWNWARD
5 TOWARDS THE SIDEWALK IN AN EASTERLY DIRECTION.
6 Q. MISS SIMPSON'S FOOT, WAS IT WEDGED UNDER THE
7 GATE OR WAS THERE A FAIR AMOUNT OF ROOM?
8 A. NO BOTH ANKLES, JUST ABOVE THE ANKLES APPEARED
9 TO BE WEDGED.
10 "WEDGED" MAY NOT BE THE BEST TERM.
11 THEY WERE BENEATH IT AND -- BOTH WERE BENEATH.
12 HOW THEY GOT THAT WAY, IT POSSIBLY COULD HAVE
13 HAPPENED AFTER A STRUGGLE WHEN SHE WAS ATTEMPTING TO MOVE.
14 IT'S CONJECTURE.
15 BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION TO THINK THAT A
16 SUSPECT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT.
17 Q. IN OTHER WORDS, BASED ON WHAT YOU FOUND, THERE
18 IS NOTHING TO INDICATE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SHE FELL AND
19 LANDED IN THAT MANNER?
20 A. NO.
21 IF WE CAN LOOK AT PHOTOGRAPH -C, IT'S -- ABOVE
22 THE RIGHT ANKLE AND ABOVE THE LEFT ANKLE ARE BENEATH THE
23 FENCED GATE.
24 IT'S JUST THE WAY SHE MIGHT HAVE FALLEN AND
25 MOVED AFTER SHE WAS STABBED.
26 THERE IS NOTHING TO INDICATE THAT SHE WAS
27 FORCIBLY JAMMED UNDERNEATH THAT GATE.
28 Q. IS THERE ANYTHING, THOUGH, TO INDICATE THAT THE
309
1 GATE WAS DRAGGED ALONG HER LEGS IN ANY MANNER?
2 A. WHETHER THE GATE WAS DRAGGED?
3 Q. YES.
4 AT THE AUTOPSY, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE IF THERE
5 WERE ANY SCRAPE MARKS THAT MIGHT HAVE INDICATED THAT THE
6 GATE WAS PUSHED ALONG HER ANKLE OR MOVED?
7 A. NO.
8 IF I MAY, THE GATE IN QUESTION THAT HER ANKLES
9 AND LOWER LEGS WERE UNDER IS A STATIONERY GATE. THAT'S A
10 STATIONERY GATE.
11 THE MOVEABLE GATE IS DEPICTED TO THE RIGHT
12 SIDE; THIS IS STATIONERY.
13 Q. THAT'S THE ONE YOU ARE POINTING TO WHEN YOU
14 SAY, "THIS"?
15 A. THIS IS STATIONERY -- PHOTOGRAPH -C, THE
16 LEFT-UPPER SIDE OF PHOTOGRAPH -C IS A STATIONERY GATE.
17 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, SIR.
18 AND, FOR THE RECORD, PHOTOGRAPH -C WE ARE
19 REFERRING TO IS ON PEOPLE'S 1.
20 THE WITNESS: PEOPLE'S 1.
21 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
22 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
23 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
24
25 (SHORT PAUSE.)
26
27 THE FOREPERSON: INVESTIGATING OFFICER LANGE, BEFORE
28 YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING
310
1 SAY TO YOU NOW:
2 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
3 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
4 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
5 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
6 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
7 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
8 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
9 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
10 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
11 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
12 YOU.
13 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
14 THE WITNESS: I DO.
15 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
16
17 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
18 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
19
20 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN
21 PREVIOUSLY ADMONISHED.
22 THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS UNTIL THIS MATTER
23 UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:30.
24 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
25
26 (EVENING ADJOURNMENT TAKEN.)
27 -O0O-
28
